Stu Gregor is a successful business owner and entrepreneur. With co-founders he recently sold his shareholding in Four Pillars Gin and in this episode debunks some exit myths, and shares some his take on the life as a small business owner.
Stu and his @fourpillarsgin co-founders recently sold the last 50% of their business to Vanguard Luxury Brands, the Lion-owned distribution business. Four Pillars is an Australian success story.
Stu's has a lengthy background in food, wine, hospitality and travel. His other business and personal experiences include;
We discuss;
Stu opens up about the emotional aspect of selling a business, the need for a strong plan for what comes next and debunks a some myths.
Myth #1: Exiting a business means you've made it and can retire happily.
Myth #2: Life after a business exit is all relaxation and no challenges.
Myth #3: The traditional concept of work-life balance
Timestamped summary of this episode:
00:00:01 - Introduction
Stu Gregor is the guest on the Small Business Banter Podcast. He discusses his recent sale of Four Pillars gin and his role as co-founder of Liquid Ideas.
00:02:16 - Background and Experience
Stu shares his journey from journalism to the wine industry and eventually founding Liquid Ideas, a communications agency. He highlights the value of being both an advisor and a doer in business.
00:07:08 - Lessons Learned from Four Pillars
Stu reflects on his experience with Four Pillars gin and the lessons he learned as he built the brand. He acknowledges the value of lived experience and how it enhances his advisory role.
00:09:09 - Transition and Future Plans
Stu discusses the challenges of transitioning out of Four Pillars and the conflicting advice he receives about what to do next. He expresses his energy and excitement for new ventures and ideas.
00:10:45 - Uncertainty and Possibilities
Stu shares his current state of uncertainty and the various ideas he has for his future endeavors. He highlights his desire for change and the constant generation of new possibilities.
00:15:13 - The Role of the Ex Co-founder
Stu Gregor discusses his role as the ex co-founder of Four Pillars and compares it to being a loose player in the back line in the AFL. He highlights the freedom he had to roam and go where he pleased, without an official role.
00:18:29 - The Genesis of Four Pillars
Stu shares the story of how Four Pillars started in the back of a friend's shed in the Yarra Valley. He explains how they raised money from 20 investors and focused on building the best gin distillery business, without initially considering an exit plan.
00:21:18 - Building Something Worthy of Attention
Stu emphasizes the importance of building something successful before considering an exit plan. He cautions against starting a business with the sole intention of getting out, and highlights the need to be all in and passionate about what you're building.
00:23:35 - Timing and Luck
Stu acknowledges the role of timing and luck in the success of Four Pillars. He mentions that they entered the gin industry at a time when there were fewer competitors, giving them an early mover advantage. He also highlights the need for a world-class product to stand out in a crowded market.
00:26:04 - Expertise and Industry Knowledge
Stu emphasizes the importance of expertise and industry knowledge, citing their combined 50 years of experience in the drinks industry as a major advantage. He advises aspiring entrepreneurs to assess
00:31:37 - The Beginning of Four Pillars Gin
The guest talks about how Four Pillars Gin started gaining recognition, winning awards, and expanding its distribution. They emphasize the importance of not just having a great product, but also marketing and selling it effectively.
00:32:57 - Building a Business
The guest explains that their goal was to create a viable business that would employ many people and contribute to the development of the gin category. They reflect on their success in creating unique gin flavors and establishing themselves as a leading brand in Australia.
00:34:21 - Attracting Attention
The guest shares that larger spirits companies, like Diageo, started taking notice of Four Pillars Gin's success. They had meetings with representatives of these companies, who expressed interest and admiration for their brand. This sparked the guest's curiosity about potential opportunities for the business.
00:37:02 - Seeking Advice
The guest realizes the need for external advice and engages the services of Canterbury Partners, an advisory firm specializing in mergers and acquisitions. They stress the importance of getting expert guidance in navigating the complex process of potential acquisition or investment.
00:40:58 - Getting Expert Counsel
The guest emphasizes the value of having external counsel during negotiations with potential buyers. They believe that having a third party advocate for your interests can help maintain a positive relationship with the buyer and prevent conflicts that may arise during the negotiation process.
00:46:55 - Building a Strong Relationship with the Buyer
The guest discusses the ups and downs of the deal but emphasizes the importance of having a strong relationship with the buyer, which provides comfort and allows for continued investment in the business processes.
00:47:30 - Challenges and Distractions in 2019
The guest shares that finalizing the deal in 2019 was a stressful process as it required a lot of time and expertise. They also mention their decision to sell only 50% of the business and work on unfinished projects.
00:49:13 - Navigating the Challenges of 2020
The guest discusses the impact of the pandemic on their business, with international markets and on-premise markets closing down. They had to adapt by selling gin online, delivering cocktails, and even making hand sanitizer.
00:51:23 - Negotiating the Second Tranche of the Sale
The guest talks about how the pandemic affected the mechanics of the second tranche of the sale and the need to renegotiate the terms. It took several months to reach an agreed price that would benefit both parties.
00:54:57 - The Importance of Building a Brand
The guest emphasizes that a brand is the most valuable asset in the industry. Buyers are not just interested in physical assets but also in the brand's customer loyalty, awareness, and love. Building a brand can differentiate a business and make it more attractive for sale.
01:04:02 - The Challenges of Small Business
Stu emphasizes that starting and running a small business is challenging but incredibly satisfying. He encourages people to pursue their passions and find work that stimulates and fulfills them.
01:05:21 - Work-Life Balance and Personal Growth
Stu discusses the concept of work-life balance and suggests that if work is enjoyable and fulfilling, the need for balance diminishes. He shares how his experiences in small business have helped him grow as a person and become a better human.
01:06:30 - The Relentless Slog of Small Business
Stu acknowledges that running a small business is a relentless and challenging journey. However, he highlights that the hard work can be highly gratifying and invigorating, especially if you are passionate about what you do.
01:07:17 - Leaving with Grace and Planning for the Future
Stu advises that when the time comes to exit a small business, it's important to do so gracefully and not criticize or undermine those who take over. He also emphasizes the need to have a plan for what comes next to maintain a sense of purpose and fulfillment.
01:08:21 - Reaching Out to Stu
Stu shares that anyone interested in connecting with him can reach out to him on LinkedIn. He thanks Michael for the conversation and expresses his enjoyment.
Stuart Gregor (00:01.066)
Excuse me.
Michael (00:02.846)
Welcome into the Small Business Banta podcast. Stu Greger is my very special guest today. Great to have you in, Stu. Thanks for making time in a very busy schedule.
Stuart Gregor (00:16.007)
problem, Michael, it's probably not as busy as you think right now. It was probably a little bit busier a few months ago, but right now not that busy. But thanks for having me.
Michael (00:19.626)
Well, yeah. Look, I'm looking forward to finding out why you were so busy in a couple of months back because that's kind of the essence of why we chatted. Stu is amongst other things a co-founder of Four Pillars Gin and Stu and his two shareholder partners sold out recently to Lion or sold the balance of the shareholding in that business.
We're going to drill down on that. But aside from that, Stu has his own business, has had for many years called Liquid Ideas. It's a communications agency in food, drink, travel, lifestyle, lots of time in the food and bed, hospitality, travel industry, part owner of a bespoke travel business with your sister, former panelist on ABC's Gruen.
President of the Australian DeSille Association, Director of RUOK and Oz Harvest, and then married with children. So it's a pretty rich pallet, Stu. And also, I just found out becoming more of a golf nut. So thanks.
Stuart Gregor (01:31.875)
Importantly, Melbourne Business School alumni with you if you don't mind.
Michael (01:36.255)
Yes, if we don't mind. Yeah, that's how Stu and I met over, do you know it was over a, it was a marketing subject and it was about creating a new brand for Bubbly, I think. So there you go, it was 20 plus years ago down in somewhere in Port Melbourne or Albert Park. We were in, you know, locked up in a room trying to create a whiz bang marketing campaign. Yeah.
Stuart Gregor (02:00.837)
Albert Park, Bridport Street.
Michael (02:03.818)
So, Stu, give us some time and some flavor and context about Stu Gregor and where he's been and where he is now.
Stuart Gregor (02:16.767)
Well, without wanting to bore you with too much detail, I suppose, you know, I mean, after school, I guess, if I look at a, you know, a sort of, you know, I'm 54 years old now. And I mean, as you as you just said, I've sold, I've sold the four pillars business, which is a business that we've had running for the last 10 years, I sold out of that in July in 2023 and finished up with them in September.
of this year and I've just come back from a little overseas, you know, a bit of a holiday at the start of what is a, a designed sabbatical for six months to try to figure out what I'm gonna do next. But I guess, you know, I came out of the world of media and journalism was kind of what I did straight out of school and then found my way into the wine industry. Interestingly, I've got a little...
note here from a little winery called Rockford where I worked out in the Barossa Valley back in the early 90s, mid 90s and that's where I went to college and studied wine marketing as it was called then sort of wine business degree if you like and that's how I sort of morphed my journalism and communications abilities in with you know sort of understanding a bit more about wine and drinks into creating a little business called Liquid Ideas that just mentioned and Liquid Ideas still exists today in fact I was out with the
the managing director of Liquid Ideas yesterday at an event called South by Southwest, an amazing marketing conference and whole of industry and futuristic conference in Sydney for the first time just yesterday. And Liquid Ideas goes from strength to strength and Liquid Ideas advisors and councils, great spirits and wine and food and hospitality and travel businesses in their marketing and communications undertakings basically. And that business still goes strong today, still got 20 odd staff. And
And that business was born out. Yeah. Yep. And it was born, it was born out of an entrepreneurship subject at Melbourne Business School, actually, back in 1999, with a girl called Angie Bradbury, who started for Liquid Ideas with me. Angie and I met in a lecture theatre at Melbourne Business School when we were both doing our masters. So that has been a constant. And I guess one of the things that
Michael (04:08.623)
That's been a constant. It's been a constant through the last.
Stuart Gregor (04:35.011)
One of the reasons Four Pillars exists is that I've always loved the council. Like I've always loved the idea of being a, you know, I suppose a consultant or a specialist advisor and all that sort of stuff. But it frustrates me to a point, and this is probably why I left journalism. It frustrates me to a point where you tend to be the observer rather than the doer.
you tend to be the person who gives all the advice, but you're not the person responsible for the ultimate decision making and the ultimate creation of whatever it is. And I guess that when I was a journalist, I always was interviewing interesting people, whether they were musicians or politicians or sports people. And I probably wasn't satisfied enough just being the person interviewing them. I thought, oh, we're much more interesting actually with a person doing something. And the same thing, I suppose, out of Liquid Ideas, once...
we were at a point where we were advising big spirits companies and beer companies and wine companies about stuff. I kept, in the back of my mind was always, well, why wouldn't I try to have a crack at doing something actually myself? Like build my own brand or our own brand. And so when I got together with Cameron McKenzie, who was a guy I'd met back in the late 90s, back when I was studying with you.
And then a guy called Matt Jones, who I probably met 10 years later, or 15, 12 or 13 years later, you know, we got together and said, well, why don't we try to create a gin brand from scratch and basically do all the things we tell other people that they should be doing, and actually prove that we can do it ourselves. And I think that's a great, I think that's a great test of a consultant, if they've got the runs on the board themselves.
Michael (06:15.894)
Yeah, because it kind of says that you've got an in-ate desire to do something and you're excited and you can or you can't, and if you can't, you learn something about what you did wrong. So, yeah, because just to be in the background and consistently advising without ever testing whether you could actually implement some of what you talk about is, it's a significant step, isn't it?
Stuart Gregor (06:15.993)
and so
Stuart Gregor (06:42.651)
It is, it's the difference between, frankly, the simplest way to describe it, it's the difference between walking the walk and talking the talk. You know, I mean, everyone can have the best ideas in the world and talk a great game, but if you've not got lived experience, you fall short by...
a certain percent. It's not 100% because I think great advisors and great counsel and great consultants can be hugely valuable. I mean, I've been one for my whole adult life essentially, or my whole work life, but you learn so much more from having done it yourself and learned from it and made all the mistakes. And I think that's...
you know, if I look at Four Pillars, which was essentially a 10 year journey that started in 2013, and I mean, I got out in 2023, just towards the end of 2023, like right about now. Um, it was that there were so many bits of advice I gave people.
over the years that came to help me. And there were also bits of advice I gave people that probably weren't in hindsight or in retrospect. And I'm like, okay, now I realize why they didn't listen to that piece of advice, because potentially it wasn't, you know, I didn't look at the commercial implications or the distribution implications, or I hadn't really got my head around production. So, you know, if I were to go back into consulting now to advise.
any sorts of businesses. I think I'm much better placed now to give them advice having had the experience of yeah
Michael (08:10.894)
You've got a few battle scars and also, obviously, a capacity to reflect. And, you know, but I mean, that advisory role is it needs to be very, not black and white, but impartial, unemotional at times. And that's that sort of middle ground where you, yeah, to be an advisor, you've got to be able to detach sometimes and look at it, you know,
just purely from an advice point of view because no matter what the owner or the business founder is brewing up, it often doesn't make sense. So you've got to be hard. But anyway, so maybe through liquid ideas, that's an ongoing vehicle and maybe you do come back to businesses with a slightly different approach, which is a nice evolution of your
Stuart Gregor (09:08.227)
Yeah. Look, I think so. I think, um, you know, everyone, it's an interesting time. Um, in, you know, like, I like, I like change and I like new things and I like to push myself and challenge myself in various areas. And this is an interesting one because now, you know, the first thing
you get so you get asked one thing and get told one thing right in this in this weird little sort of zombie state where you're the walking dead you're sort of retired but you're not retired you certainly don't want to be retired but there are certain contractual things that you can't do so there's a whole lot of things that you might want to do but you can't because you've got non-complete agreements and all that sort of stuff and then and then people ask you so what's next
What are you doing now? What are you gonna do next? Like straight away, like within days of having left the business. What are you gonna do next? What's your next plan? What are you gonna do? And then you get told by other people, take a break, don't do anything. You need some time out. You need to rest and reset and think. So it's a really interesting phase of your own.
life, which is people really want to know what you're doing, but people are also at the same time telling you not to do anything. And I wake up every day with another stupid idea of what I want to do and I go to bed thinking, well, that wasn't the best idea and I wake up the next morning with another one. I mean, yesterday I was going to open a cafe in Coogee and the day before I think I was going to make whiskey in New Zealand. So I mean, I don't know where I'm going to land to be honest.
Michael (10:31.784)
Yes.
Michael (10:38.431)
Will it?
Yeah.
Michael (10:45.442)
Well, see what that tells me is there's energy and I deal with a lot of business owners and there are some who I think are completely and utterly spent and they're looking to do something else and there's a lot who are hardwired because of 20, 30 years of experience doing, being in charge of the business, having good days, having bad days, but fundamentally not being able to.
to go and just happily walk the dog. In this hundred and whatever episode, I think it's 135. Like I've used this expression, I don't wanna walk the dog with a few expletives because a business owner said that to me one time. And it was, we'd gone through a process of trying to sell their business. It was never enough money. And after long story short, after a while it turns out this particular owner could see through and go,
I don't know what I'd do. And I think it might be really a negative. So yeah, for you it sounds like this. If it doesn't turn off, well, you just got to deal with that. And that's a good thing. And you can find the right channel.
Stuart Gregor (11:47.995)
Hmm.
Stuart Gregor (12:04.439)
Yeah, I guess I guess I'm lucky in that even if I can't figure out what it is, I do still have the consulting business that we could I'd be businesses that I could lean into although in although yesterday that the girl who's the managing director there and she's been there about two and a half years and she's a really, really talented young and digitally focused like really clever young woman. And we were at we were at South by Southwest yesterday. So there's a lot of people around and there was a lot of sort of networking and
Stuart Gregor (12:34.603)
And it was me telling her everything I know. And she's like, is this what it's going to be like if you come back? Because I'm not sure I need this because I can be quite a, you know, I can be quite a like a tornate. I can be quite a tornado of ideas and talking and, you know, and she was like, oh, God, this is a lot because I made me meet up with her once a month for 30 minutes at the moment. And now she's terrified that I'm going to come back and sit in the office for four days a week, just yelling a lot.
Michael (12:39.822)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Michael (12:46.634)
You're not needed here, studio.
Michael (12:52.159)
Yeah.
Stuart Gregor (13:04.081)
So.
Michael (13:05.706)
It's a function of the same thing, that you're engaged and interested and alive and you can't help yourself. But that's one of those when an owner sells and there's an earn out or there's a period, particularly if they sell to staff in small businesses, which happens a lot. So you've got to contemplate this sort of governance thing.
Stuart Gregor (13:11.148)
Mm. Correct.
Michael (13:32.874)
and specific roles because you're no longer the owner or you're no longer the CEO. So it's respectful for the rest of the team to let them do what you and the board or the advisory board tell them is their KPIs or their role. So yeah, it's hard to let go.
Stuart Gregor (13:51.327)
Yeah, it is. Look, I can't imagine what it's like to sell to staff like an NBO or something like that. Like I'm imagining that would be difficult. I mean, we had a, you know, I knew I wasn't so there were three founders of four pillars and two of them have stayed in the business, but I knew that I was not capable of doing that. And actually I said that I would stay for two months from July one to September one to help with the transition and just help make it.
You know, we just thought from even from the point of view of optics, you know, me not leaving the day the deal was signed up, we just thought, well, that's probably not the best look of all time. But I was a terrible employee for that two months. Like I was a disaster because I'm not used to not
owning the business. I'm not used to not being able to tell everyone my thoughts and how to act. And also going from being what was a dynamic small business with, you know, three founders who were on the, who were, you know, contactable every day of every week and to being a corporate entity that had all these rules and regulations and HR departments and all that sort of stuff. I just found it, frankly, completely, um, stultifying.
Michael (15:05.2)
Yeah, two worlds collide. Yeah.
Stuart Gregor (15:08.219)
Yeah, I found it like suffocating. I was terrible. And apart from having no official role other than being the ex co-founder who's out of the business in eight weeks, yeah.
Michael (15:23.554)
You're like the loose player in the back line in the AFL, right? You know, just had, you're allowed to roam and, you know, go where you... But it looked, you know, start... Yeah.
Stuart Gregor (15:31.439)
Yeah. Yeah, it was a very funny. It was a very funny couple of months in hindsight. You know, over the years, I'll look back on it and think it was it was a very, very interesting time of my, my life.
Michael (15:44.97)
Well, it is, you know, you go from a startup with fellow founders, mates, had this great idea and I think I'd love to, you know, kind of go back a little bit to the start of that. But that energy focus in a startup like that, I had three years in a startup just after finishing my MBA with you.
Stuart Gregor (15:56.915)
Sure.
Michael (16:15.37)
as hard, but I've never seen a group of people move the dial so much because every day you'd come in and it mattered and it was up to you. It was just, I don't know if I'd ever do it again. I mean, I've started my own business after that, but the pace, you know, isn't and couldn't be sustained like that. So with, so we go back.
It wasn't a garage that you started in. It was a, Four Pillars was a, because what I'd like to do is just recap on Four Pillars story and then, and just talk to you a little bit more about the process because this podcast is more and more about helping owners who have got a business, could be worth 200,000, a million, five million, 10, whatever. It's important to them.
personally and financially, I want them to be more aware of what an exit could be like, what are the other options. So where did Four Pillars start and what was the genesis of it?
Stuart Gregor (17:29.971)
Walk the Tint.
Yeah, it's an interesting story. I mean, it's interesting to talk about exit. And I'm happy to talk about how we managed our way through that and how we set it up for a successful exit because we have just, you know, it's only happened in the last couple of months. But I mean, it was, so Cameron McKenzie and I, who are mates and who had both worked in the wine industry and he lived in the Yarra Valley and I lived in Sydney and we made a bit of wine together and touled around a bit over the years. In about 2011 or 2012, started thinking,
We had made some wine on the side, but we had never done anything particularly serious. We together thought maybe we should do something, and what might it be? We landed on gin. We...
We met, fortunately, a third partner, a guy called Matt Jones, who neither of us had known before. But in a very short period of time, we realized that he would be a great third partner in terms of his ability to write strategy and his ability to bring the sort of ideas.
together and package them up and work with a digital team and a website team and a brand and build a brand strategy because I think a lot of small businesses don't do that sort of thing at the start and they should.
Stuart Gregor (18:49.763)
We weren't particularly, you know, super well capitalized. I mean, we did start it up in the back of a mate's shed, like actually, like in the, he had a winery in the bottom end of the Yarra Valley. If anyone knows Victorians in Warren Dite South, that's not really the Yarra Valley. You can tell anyone from outside of Melbourne, it's the Yarra, but if you're in Melbourne, you know that it's really not the Yarra. It's Wonga Park, basically. And we...
We raised a bit of money, you know, the three of us put money in, you know, we just remortgaged our houses. We've got 20 investors who put sort of, you know, 25, 30 grand in each. Um, and we promised them nothing much more than a bit of gin and a hell of a ride. Um, and
Michael (19:31.01)
So it's a bit like a crowdfunding thing before that really, as in you go to your network of friends and say, look, put some, a relatively small amount of money in, you'll get some product and...
Stuart Gregor (19:37.281)
Yeah, no p-
Yep. And we also did so we did a crowdfunding we did a virtual or a or a possible campaign as well. But that wasn't for equity that was just to get the first batch of the gym, right? That was just a publicity exercise as much as anything else, but also an ability for us to drive a consumer database from the beginning from the get go. So the our 20 investors put in
Michael (19:47.212)
Oh, you did, right.
Michael (19:55.071)
Yep.
Stuart Gregor (20:03.919)
real money for a piece of the business and then away we went. And the three of us kept 60 odd percent of the business between the three, it was equally split and away we went. And at the time I was holding down my real job, which was Liquid Ideas and our mates who put the money in, had an expectation that we would take it seriously enough. So we said sort of, okay, well we'll...
we will most likely be in this business full time within the next couple of years. Matt said the same thing. Cameron was in the business full time from the get go. And away we went. We didn't begin the business with an exit in mind. And I think that's one thing that I don't think you can do. I don't think you can be motivated in the right way if you're going in to get out.
Right, because you've got to get in to be in, right? You've got to want to be in. You've got to, yeah, and you've got to want to, you've got to love the job. You've got to build something that becomes worthy of other people's attention, right? You don't, like, I sort of cringe when, you know, and I see a lot of...
Michael (20:57.474)
Yeah.
Michael (21:01.346)
and you're gonna be all in.
Stuart Gregor (21:23.407)
business proposals and small business and startups go past my desk because everyone thinks that you know, either I'm a wizard or I've got more money than I have or whatever that I should be an investor in their small business startup, whatever it happens to be, whether it's, you know, menswear or distilling or facial, you know, facial care or distribution or whatever the businesses are, you know, a few of them.
come to me and I worry that they're already talking about an exit strategy when they haven't even got an entrance strategy. You've got to get in and build something and it's only if you build something successful that you're going to be able to have a good exit because no one wants to
Michael (22:06.558)
I'm really pleased to hear you say that, Stu, because it kind of poisons the water a bit that unless you have an exit in mind, that you're kind of off track already. And I agree with you. You just, you got to, well, you got to barrel on, barrel in and get stuck into this just purely to make it work that a day. And then, yeah, because we will talk about how the exit came about, but it's, I think it's comfort.
Stuart Gregor (22:32.668)
Mm-mm.
Michael (22:35.918)
to a lot of owners that you don't have an exit plan at the start. I don't know how many ever start a business with that in mind. I think it's a very small proportion. But the further you go, the further you get closer to the point where you probably should think about some kind of exit plan. But not necessarily. I think they're also pretty limited in a lot of ways. They just assume a lot of things that there's only one kind of buyer.
You know, the exit's the only option. There's not, there's a lot of other ways out.
Stuart Gregor (23:08.407)
Yeah, look, I'm not, you know, I'm not an expert in that. You're the expert at that. But I mean, I mean, we, I don't even think for the first five years, we even gave it a minute's thought. I don't think we necessarily were thinking this business will go forever and our children will inherit it. Because we did have other, we did have external investors who at some point, either we were gonna have to pay them out of our own pockets, or they were expecting us to sell to someone. I mean, we really didn't give it for five years. We just plowed on to try to make the best.
gene distillery business that we could without it.
Michael (23:40.354)
So it was a focus on being the best you could, like a pure, this is, we started this to make the best, what you consider the best gin in the world, and that was purely and only the focus.
Stuart Gregor (23:43.759)
100%.
Stuart Gregor (23:52.051)
Correct, correct. Correct, and it had to be, I mean, not just to make it, but to market it as the best gin in the world, to have the best events in the world, to have the best distribution in the world, you know, like to build a business. Like, you know, I mean, far be it for me to go back to the peas of marketing, but I mean, you have to be world-class at all of them, whether it's price promotion, product, packaging, people, all that sort of stuff. So, you know, we had to become the world's best at
or amongst the world's best at everything. But we were very lucky in timing. And again, one of the things, I was actually talking to a mate this morning on a walk around here that, just because you had a bit of luck and a bit of success in one business does not make you an expert in your next business or in any other businesses. And we were lucky in terms of timing. We came into the gin industry where there were maybe 10 or 12 people making gin in Australia, and today there's over 300. So we were very lucky in that we had a
Whilst we weren't the first mover, we certainly had an early mover advantage, right? We were not, we were at the early part of the wave of gin distilleries. Right now, you're at the, you know, at the bottom of the wave and you've got to paddle like crazy. And some will succeed and many, and some will not. But
Michael (25:07.774)
And it probably won't be because the quality of the gin isn't there, it's because it's just so crowded and yeah.
Stuart Gregor (25:13.331)
Correct. It's just increasingly difficult to find space. I mean, shelf space, like actual space on a shelf and also sort of spacing consumers' minds. So it's a tough market now. But that's not to say, there are plenty of markets that are crowded that a newcomer can succeed if they are very single-minded, if they are offering something that is unique and brilliant and...
Michael (25:24.279)
Yeah.
Stuart Gregor (25:40.647)
You know, right now, you know, I say to people right now that, you know, the minimum chips to enter is to have a world class product. Like if your product can't win a gold medal at the International Wine and Spirits Competition or something in San Francisco or something in Melbourne or whatever else, then, you know, you don't have a right to earn a consumer's trust because the consumer's already got enough, enough gins. Many of the consumers have enough gins in them, in them on the shelf or, or out when they go.
drinking. So you need to earn the right for consumers to you know, and we're in a cost of living, cost of living crisis at the moment as well, right. So, you know, people 80 buck bottle of gin is not an everyday occurrence for most people. So it's got to be special. It's got to be something that's really, really good. So yeah, it's a it's a tough time now. But we were lucky in that we got in early and then we won a bunch of things early and I guess
Michael (26:14.582)
Yep.
Michael (26:22.998)
Yeah.
Stuart Gregor (26:34.159)
you know, if I'm talking to people who are thinking about setting up a business of any description is, is how expert are you in this industry and this category beyond everyone else? Like we had 50 combined years of expertise in drinks marketing, activation, brand and brand strategy, right? Now that's a big advantage over someone who wants to set up a gin distillery who's come out of the superfund.
or they've come out of having worked in finance and have just decided that they're going to get it and get into gender stealing because they're bored with their job. Yeah.
Michael (27:06.714)
Yeah, yeah, the numbers look good. So, yeah, but I think I can only imagine that how you as three mates and shareholders work together was also incredibly important because you can't take, you can go into business with your family and friends and it can be a complete disaster. So that, you know, I think that must have been a, you know, I'm sure there were, you know,
there's ups and downs, but fundamentally, you know, I think you're still mates with them. So that's tick, you know, you've gotten through a lot together and, you know, to still be able to.
Stuart Gregor (27:46.915)
Yeah, look, and again, I think that's not science. I mean, I think we were lucky. I think we, you know, we'd hardly knew Matt when we came in with him and we were just lucky. We were just lucky with him that he was as good as he is, or what not was, is he's not dead. And Cameron and I had worked together before.
Michael (27:53.082)
Hmm. All right. Yeah. Okay.
Michael (27:59.738)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Stuart Gregor (28:07.659)
and we knew that we could work together and we knew that we had a certain symbiosis. He was good at certain things and I was good at other things. So we weren't necessarily gonna get in each other's way. And we trusted each other. I think one of the things about if you are gonna go into business with a mate or a friend or a colleague and that sort of stuff is, is not just understand your lane, but you've gotta have this inherent trust in the other person's ability and integrity.
and you just can never have doubts. Like I don't think, you know, we fought and we disagreed, but we never doubted each other's intent or each other's ambition or each other's, you know, honesty. Like we never, that never came into it. And I think that the place where relationships break up and partnerships break up is when there's a fracture in your trust. And...
Michael (28:56.158)
Yeah.
Stuart Gregor (29:07.223)
I know how to factor in trust with Cameron. It's not to say we didn't agree on everything, but I never questioned his intent.
Michael (29:08.81)
Yeah.
Michael (29:14.942)
Yeah, yeah. No, look, it's very definitely a fortunate thing to be able to go in and keep functioning at the different levels. There's still, in the background, friends, but in the foreground, we're on a mission here to build, create the world's best gin and market the world's best gin. And so often, I think founders or prospective business partners, they kind of leap at, we know each other,
but they've never really tested how they're going to work together before they work together. Like, so you can get lucky, but you can also, I've seen it come apart and tear a family or tear mates or friends or, you know, a couple. It's just, you know, so you can put in place a couple of things. So you said there was no, you know, so the first five years, no exit in mind. As I said, I love that. It was about, let's...
probably a recognition underneath all of that if it doesn't work well we gave it an absolute red hot crack and so you roll forward how many we're probably going to miss out on a few details but how many years was it before you realized you had something that was
I mean, you got awards for your gin, but that it became something that might be of interest to a bigger company or might be valuable financially and we've had a good run. Can you talk about?
Stuart Gregor (30:53.367)
Yeah, I reckon it's four or five years, right? So I think if we say we started in 2013, I reckon it was towards the, it was, let's call it the five year mark. Let's say it's 2018. So we've, the gin wave has sort of begun. We've built, in 2015, we bought a shed in Healesville, which for those of you who don't know the Yarra Valley, so we've gone from being in a crappy part of the Yarra in Warrandyte to buying a beautiful timber yard right in the heart of.
Hillsville and we opened that in 2015. So let's call that two years after two, two and a half years after we started, we opened a really beautiful distillery door. And I think the moment where we started thinking crikey, this could be good is when people were queuing up at the front of our distillery on Saturday mornings waiting to come in to taste the gin and have a drink and we thought crikey maybe we are we're onto something here. We'd had a couple of a little bit of success.
in a few awards, you know, people started to know us, we'd been able to get good distribution. So, you know, you could buy us in Dan Murphy's and you could buy us in some nice places overseas. And I think that, that.
Michael (32:02.542)
Was that as much, was that like an overt and a conscious focus on we've got a great product but we still got to market the crap out of it or promote the, yeah.
Stuart Gregor (32:11.843)
Yeah, well marketing is everything. I mean, I say to everyone, you know, making it's easy, selling it's hard. Right? Not to disparage that...
Michael (32:18.43)
Which can be a found, and it can be a found this challenge. I want the best, the most pure, the leading edge, but you gotta say you gotta sell it.
Stuart Gregor (32:28.591)
If you don't have a customer, it doesn't matter how good your product is, right? Great, you can sit at home and masticate all you like about how wonderful your product is and why yours is better than everyone else's. But it frankly doesn't matter if you don't have a customer base. I mean, unless you just wanna do it for shits and giggles. If you're in the business just for a passion project on this just because you wanna make the world's best gym, well, that's great.
Michael (32:44.534)
Yeah.
Stuart Gregor (32:53.807)
But that's not a commercial undertaking. That's not a proper commercial enterprise. That's just a really nice hobby. And there's nothing wrong with that at all.
Michael (32:59.37)
It's an honorable artisan pursuit. Yeah.
Stuart Gregor (33:03.183)
And there are people out there who are doing it in every category and good luck to them. But, you know, we were interested in making it into, into creating a business and creating a viable business that was going to employ lots of people and, and build, help build a category, you know? And, and, and when I think, so if I go back to the five year point, I think by 2018, you know, we had created a, a thing, a bloody Shiraz gin, we created a Christmas gin, we created gins that didn't really exist categories, subcategories within gin that didn't really exist.
that we only wanted to make gin. And I think we were easily Australia's biggest gin brand by then and we were Australia's biggest craft spirit brand by then and we probably had half of the Australian gin market to ourselves and that I think began to get attention of.
a few of the bigger players, they're like, you know, like say, let's say that Mr. Global Dispirits Company once, once a year might fly to Australia and have a look around and go, what the hell is this Four Pillars gin? It seems to be everywhere. And people are talking about it. Let's win in these awards. And I've seen it pop up in a liquor store in London or New York. And what is it? And I mean, it was as simple as that. I actually do remember that the world's biggest distilling business is a business called Diageo.
A couple of the guys at Deagio were friends of ours and they liked us and I had worked with them in the past as a consultant and their local marketing director said, hey, we've got a bunch of the global guys in for a session on learning about stuff. Would you guys come in and just chat about Four Pillars? I said, sure, of course we would. These are the people who own Tankeray and Gordon's and Smirnoff and Bailey's and Guinness and they're the biggest and best.
spirits business in the world and we said sure well you know they gave us like 45 minutes we went into their office we told them all about the four pillars story they loved it we showed them we tasted some gin with them and i think that was probably the first moment where we and then they came back and the marketing guy from australia came back he said mate they fucking love it they think you guys are unreal and we're like oh really uh he said yeah and uh you know there's uh you know they think you're a
Michael (35:09.078)
Yep. Yeah.
Stuart Gregor (35:16.731)
your business is fantastic, your brand is fantastic and you know. They didn't say we want to buy you but we got this sort of sense that okay there might be something going on here and that was probably the first time where we thought okay there's a there's something.
going on here and because at the time I was also chairing the Distillers Association, so I was chairing the Craft Spirits Association and I was at the time sort of going to more and more meetings with all the big spirits companies because we were trying to lobby.
government about tax and excise and all that sort of stuff. So I would hang out with the boss of Pernod Ricard, which is this huge business that owns Chivas Regal and Absolute Vodka and all that sort of stuff. And I was hanging out with the boss of Brown Foreman that owns Jack Daniels or the boss of Bean Suntory that owns Jim Beam and Canadian Club. And we would often talk and they would sometimes just in casual conversation having beers say that, oh, mate, you guys are doing so great, Four Pillars. You know how my boss in Asia has heard about you and is wondering what's going on. And I don't know, obviously they're
They've got gin brands and they're looking at the gin category in Australia and they're going, how, you know, what's this Aussie gin brand doing? So we, you know, we were getting a bit of a sense that, that not that they were going to buy us, but that we were certainly on, on a few radars. And I guess that was the, that was a, that was enough for us to start thinking, well, what's next?
Michael (36:36.405)
or
Oh, so that, yeah, I was going to ask that. So did you kind of recalibrate what we're going to do with this business on the basis of an intuition that we've got something here that's getting attention globally by big companies?
Stuart Gregor (36:54.371)
Yeah, look, I think what we, you know, I mean, to be honest, what we did then is we just basically went and said, what do we do? And because I was sort of, you know,
Michael (37:05.666)
Did you actually like, did you engage and advisors or anything? Yeah. Okay.
Stuart Gregor (37:08.995)
Yeah, yeah, eventually, eventually we did. So what I did is I had a couple of conversations with a few mates who were like boss heads of some of these international companies. And I said, tell me truthfully, would there be any ambition or interest in the Four Pillars business? Before I go any further, before I go and appoint people. And I spoke to a few and a couple of them said, yeah, you know what, I think there might be. The gym category is booming, they can see globally that it's fast growing.
Yeah, I think they might, you know, stay tuned. You know, I'll take it to my boss's boss. You know, they might only have a meeting once every six months with the global head of acquisition who's based in, you know, Manhattan or New York or Milan or London or wherever. And I actually remember coming towards the end of, which was probably 2018, we got one of those calls, which was from one of the very large...
businesses to say would you come over and present your credentials to the global CMO and the head of M&A in London? You know, I don't know, I don't know. I didn't shit my pants. Well, I didn't shit my pants, but I was, you know, I was like, okay, right. Now it's, this is this, this is step number two in, okay, so this is.
Michael (38:22.39)
This is a mix of emotions here. This is raw excitement.
Stuart Gregor (38:25.531)
This is now a thing. And I remember ringing a friend of mine in Melbourne, who actually had gone through the MBA a couple of years before us. And she was a really good business person based in Melbourne. And...
I know she had worked at Grant Samuel before, so she'd done a bit of work with mergers and acquisitions and I said, who's the best in Melbourne, not just Melbourne, but who would do a small advisory job around M&A and that sort of stuff for our little business. And she put me onto a little group called Canterbury Partners who are based out of Colum, you know, a small business. Yeah, Jonesy and Richard Teasdale. So I remember ringing him over, it was because it was over the Christmas period, he was skiing
Michael (39:01.698)
Simon Jones
Michael (39:06.358)
Yep.
Stuart Gregor (39:11.901)
because you know, and I was in, I don't know, I was in Sydney and we had to be in London by the end of January. And I said, mate, you don't know me, but Morgz put me onto you and this is the business and this is what we are and you know, would you be able to advise us? And he said, sure, you know, I know a bit about the business. I drink a bit of your gin. And so we got on with him and he, they helped us through the entire process, which probably took the next.
Um, gosh, I mean, probably took the next probably took 12 months of lots of meetings and lots of pulling together business plans and lots of pulling together, um, you know, ideas and, um, you know, PNLs and everything else to then actually, actually talk to a couple of the, the very serious players.
Michael (39:56.906)
Yeah. So.
Michael (40:03.882)
Yeah, yeah, but wise enough to get some experts like Canterbury Partners, Simon and Julian. No, and is that a very sage piece of advice for other owners, get some external counsel on this stuff because I mean it's invasive, it's...
Stuart Gregor (40:11.055)
Yep. There was no way we could have done it without them.
Michael (40:32.614)
often new ground and you know you want someone who's kind of had a you know a few run-throughs in terms of how you play this because there's a lot at stake.
Stuart Gregor (40:44.695)
Yeah, look, I would absolutely unequivocally, you know, and one thing I do when anyone says to me, you know, we've had some interest or we want to try to exit or we want to try to raise money. I tell them to go get advice. And I mean, I would just tell them to go to Canopy Partners, because they're the ones I know, and I trust and I like. And I would say to them, look, go.
And because there are very few people who start a business, you know, you may start a craft business, whether it's in, you know, shoe making or, or wine or spirits or whatever the hell it is. Very few of us are experts in M&A and dealing with multinationals who may buy us and Simon is experienced in that. It's also a really good When the negotiation gets difficult, which it inevitably will. And when
you want to argue points that you feel very passionate about. It's good to have a third party in there who can argue that point on your behalf so you don't fracture the relationship between you and the buyer. That you can have that third party, but like, you know, having engaged your lawyer to defend you, you know. You can engage that third party so that they can have that argument and say, look, the founders will not accede to that request. It will not happen.
Michael (41:48.732)
Yep.
Stuart Gregor (42:03.707)
rather than you stamping your feet and saying, I'm not gonna do that, I'm not gonna do that. And then potentially fracturing the relationship that you may have ongoing with the purchaser. Particularly if you have to stay, or there's an intention to stay in the business for a period, whether it's a three to five year earn out, or whether it's a lifetime, or whether it's six to 12 months. You don't want to end up you and the MD of the business that's acquiring you hating each other's guts.
Michael (42:12.247)
Yeah, cause it can't
Michael (42:16.918)
Yeah. Yep.
Michael (42:31.242)
Yeah, and it becomes much more, or even more pronounced when you're dealing with staff buyouts, which because you've got to take your employee hat off and put on your buyer's hat. But yet adversarial is probably not the right way. It should be points of contention, but that middle party to explain, to rationalize, to put it into context and say, look, there's 10 things on the table here
contentious. We probably won't, we may not win all 10, but you know, does it look okay if we get seven? So that sort of impartial, you know, calculated thinking is really important from a good advisor.
Stuart Gregor (43:17.019)
100%. I couldn't, as I said, I could not have done it without them. And I think that they are, and they see, and they put things into a deal that you would never have put into a deal, because they know what can happen down the track. And you don't. Certainly, we certainly didn't. So, yeah, no, I would, I would, I would, I would counsel getting great advice and Canterbury Partners were certainly fantastic for us.
Michael (43:23.277)
Yeah.
Michael (43:34.998)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michael (43:43.578)
Yeah. So, um, from there, what were the biggest like stresses for you? I imagine that was like, you go back to work, you keep running a great business. What, but what were the stresses that you and the other founders felt from that point on or concerns or
Stuart Gregor (43:58.883)
Well, there was, yeah, I mean, there were plenty of concerns. Oh, well, so working through 2018 into 19, when we discovered that there was one very serious potential buyer, which was Lion, and a couple of others who were tire kicking, but certainly interested, but we had our, by the end of 2018,
We had enough discussions with Lion to know they were serious. We knew that they were a beer company, but they were very keen to get in to owning craft spirits. And we were their priority target.
Michael (44:43.458)
So you really got into their heads and you could see why it made sense for them. It wasn't just tire kicking or the equivalent.
Stuart Gregor (44:51.359)
And you know, we had, they had a managing director who I liked, you know, who I trusted, who I still do to this day. They had a, they had a pretty clear idea that, you know, they were in the craft beer space and they want to, you know, they saw the growth thing and beer was relatively flat and craft spirits was growing.
They also wanted to buy the distribution business who distributed Four Pillars, and that made a lot of sense because that meant that we wouldn't lose the sales team that we had selling Four Pillars, because we were well over half of the business of the sales team. So it was beginning to make a lot of sense, and then it becomes an argument over price, as much as anything else. I mean...
roles, responsibilities, all that sort of stuff. And that, you know, can become pretty fraught. You know, I, in many ways, you know, Matt and I probably took the lead on most of those negotiations. And it took, you know, they always take longer than you expect. There are always hurdles that you think are insurmountable that get thrown in your way, when you think it's all done and dusted. But it's really and if you don't have good
Michael (46:02.754)
Be a dip.
Stuart Gregor (46:04.323)
If you don't have a good lawyer and a good advisor, trying to do it on your own, I think would be would be too much, particularly at the number like, I mean, without saying it's easier if it's less money. But if it was 100, you know, you're not gonna buy you're not gonna pay Canterbury Partners and Norton Rose law firm if you're doing a deal for $200,000. But you are if you're doing a deal for 100 million. Because you know that
Couple hundred grand you spend on advisors and everything else is relatively small compared to what? What what's happening at the what's happening? Here you go
Stuart Gregor (46:44.431)
So, did the dogs off for a walk. See, I don't want to walk the dog. Didn't you say, I don't want to walk the dog? There you go.
Michael (46:47.63)
good stuff. I did. Yeah, some people do, but some people don't. Yeah. But also, yeah, I think it sounded like you had a pretty good relationship with the buyer, essentially the CEO. And so all the dissonance along the way, the ups and downs, against the backdrop of a fundamental...
fundamentally strong relationship where you understood why they were buying. So, you know, it kind of gives you a bit of comfort, I think, to keep investing in the processes and have a few wins and losses, but, you know, come out at the other end with a, you know, what you might consider a pretty good deal. So, um, yeah, we talked about, um, the, you know, the stresses, um, keeping on, keeping on in the business, uh, we did that become a bit harder and
Um, like in terms of your focus, did you get, it started to get
Stuart Gregor (47:45.047)
Yeah, it's, it was really distracting. I mean, it was really distracting in 2019. So the deal was actually finalized in March 2019. So for that first three months of 2019, I mean, I spent most of my time trying to sort of finalize the terms of the deal itself, which was stressful because I mean, it wasn't something that I was particular, you know, that I was in any way, an expert at. It
Stuart Gregor (48:14.875)
This was to sell 50% of the business. We'd had this concept in our head that we would sell half of the business and that we would work in and earn out into the deal because we knew we had a lot of unfinished business. I think if we'd thought, if we just decided that time to sell 100% of the business, one, I don't think we would have realized its true value. And two, it just would have been too early to exit, right? We just had too much.
other stuff we wanted to do and there were too many more things that we needed to achieve and there were you know we went to them and said we wanted to build this whole new distillery down in the Yarra Valley so we knew that we needed more funds for that so they had sort of ring-fenced a bunch of money for us to build this new dream distillery that we had so I think
Michael (48:59.734)
So you became partners then in the sense, and with a shared interest in building the business properly, which you may not have been able to do without them, or without a partner.
Stuart Gregor (49:06.195)
Correct.
Stuart Gregor (49:11.911)
Correct, and that took, yes, I mean, that was 2019 to 2023, which were interesting years because we started 2019, by the end of 2019, we had won the world's best gin distillery, the first Australian distillery to win that, and that was in London, end of 2019. Things were going great, we were really growing out.
duty free business, which is a huge amount of business in the spirits business, which is airports, what's called global travel retail. So we were doing that in Sydney and Melbourne, but also in Changi and other airports around Asia in particular. And then of course, 2020 arrived and the shit hit the fan and all of our international markets and all of our on-premise markets, which is our hospitality markets, which is bars and restaurants, all basically closed in the space of three months.
Michael (49:57.055)
Yeah.
Stuart Gregor (49:59.207)
and you know that you're talking half your business. So you know we had to do what everyone else did which was figure out a way to keep the doors open which was to sell lots of gin online to people direct and deliver cocktails to people at home because they couldn't go out to their favorite bars to make hand sanitizer for three months and sort of
exist through that and Melbourne was particularly difficult as you well know that you know we were not able to even to take visitors from Melbourne to our distillery door because we were outside the ring of steel and it was a tough what I suppose 18 months you know we were able to open for a short period and then close again and then open and that decimated our business plan our all the plans that we'd written in at the start of 2019
Michael (50:47.862)
So with, but with.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Stuart Gregor (50:55.271)
that was the growth strategy to get us to a sale price for 2023, was fairy tale stuff by the end of 2020.
Michael (51:05.538)
So, but your 50% partner was locked in and so did that come together and look, this is a highly unusual event. We're going to have to pivot, do different things. How did the relationship with your partner at that point, your fellow shareholder?
Stuart Gregor (51:28.779)
Look, they were great. So this was Lyon. So this is part of Kirin, you know, so they were great. So I mean, you know, the dates get a little bit vague. But let's say we're out of the pandemic at the end of 2021, sort of October, November 21. Yeah, that's about right, isn't it? Yeah. So we've been about 18 months in and out. And it became pretty obvious within a few months of that
Michael (51:31.146)
Yeah.
Michael (51:46.24)
to blur.
Stuart Gregor (51:53.423)
you know, it was going to take a while for global travel retail to restart, you know, people getting back into flying around the world and buying two bottles of gin on their way out and two bottles of gin on their way in, which is what all Australians do. We realised that, you know, pubs and clubs and restaurants and bars who had not been open for 18 months, you know, were going to be much more cautious about what they ordered and what, what spirits they bought. And, you know, and also export markets that we hadn't even been able to visit.
for the best part of two years were struggling because people were getting, we're going much more local, right? So the American market was saying, well, do we really need Kraft gin from Australia or can we just get Kraft gin from Colorado or California or Idaho, wherever we are? Similarly in the UK, you know, we'd seen a huge growth in the small Kraft gin businesses based in England as an example. So by the early part of 2022,
Michael (52:29.452)
Yeah.
Stuart Gregor (52:50.103)
we knew that the mechanics that we had in place for the second tranche of the sale were just were decimated. So we had to start to think about how we could retool it. And to their credit at Lion, you know, we said, look, what we have in this contract, about the price that you may or may not pay for the second half of the business is a nonsense now. We need to rewrite it and we need to re-craft it. So you buy a better business and we get the...
a fairer price and that we don't just chase crazy sales in one financial year in order to hit a crazy EBIT target and a crazy net sales target that we will do by shafting the brand and overselling and under pricing and sacking the wrong people in order to hit a number that satisfies us. And to their credit, it took about the best part of six, nine months.
Michael (53:25.41)
to hit a financial KPI.
Stuart Gregor (53:48.007)
for us to negotiate an agreed price for the second half of the business. And that's what ended up happening in July this year, just passed.
Michael (53:57.158)
Yeah. And so a burning question I wanted to ask you was what line were really buying? I mean, there's a lot of M&A, a lot of transactions done. A lot of it's about synergies on the finances, bottom line. Do we have a... And what you just said then about their capacity and
Michael (54:31.863)
versus just some physical assets and some revenue streams.
Stuart Gregor (54:35.759)
Yeah. Yeah, they don't. I mean, I always say that no one buys, no one buys a anything other than a brand if they're smart, right? I mean, in our industry, at the very least, you know, there's, they didn't need to buy alcohol machines, they have a lot of alcohol machines, right? They didn't need to buy stills because anyone can just go out to the market and buy a still what you can't buy is
a brand that exists with a huge amount of customer loyalty, that exists with a huge amount of awareness, that exists with a huge amount of love. People loved Four Pillars by this stage, right? You can't, they don't love your physical assets. They don't love the bottling line, and the forklift, and the stills even. They love the whole of the business. They love maybe the Heelsville, and the people who represent us, and the brand itself, and the gin itself, obviously. So you buy the,
Michael (55:12.14)
Yep.
Stuart Gregor (55:32.359)
goodwill around the business, right? But, you know, because you already have established that the gin itself is world-class, that the hospitality is excellent, that the people are good, you know? And so you buy the whole of the business. And so with, they, and interestingly, you probably don't get the multiple that you might if you were a beer business, because with a beer business, selling into a beer business, they can just plug you in.
and triple your sales overnight because, you know, so for instance, that's stone and wood that happened the year before we sold into Lion, stone and wood sold into Lion. And that was a, that's, that's a great brand and they're buying a beautiful brand and great beer and everything else. But that's your synergy play, right? Because another beer brand, another tap, a really popular brand, you know, we can make it probably less expensively, but just as well.
And we can, you know, whatever their sales numbers are now through independent distributors, you know, which a brand like Stone and Wood would have had, can be trebled by plugging them into a business where we sell Forex and Two is new and West End and Swann. So there's, they didn't have that infrastructure with Spirits that they did with Beer. Although they did have, they had a growing infrastructure of Spirits distribution. So that was important to us as well.
Michael (56:37.078)
Yeah. Yep.
Michael (56:56.35)
Yeah, yeah. Um, Stu, yeah, I, like, I think, um, with small businesses, they're, you know, brands kind of, and goodwill's a dirty word in a lot of ways, because, you know, what, what buyers tell you they're looking for is, you know, secure revenues and, but I, yeah, I just think this highlights that, um, there is, um, if you, if you care, care about your business and
build a brand and a story, it's got to help to differentiate you at least if not make it easier to sell at the right time. Was there a sense for you and the co-founders of selling your baby after all this time? Roll forward to just recently, what's for you particularly because you're out.
Stuart Gregor (57:46.447)
Yeah. I mean, that's still very fresh. Yeah, that's very fresh for me. I mean, I'm in a Yeah, I'm in that place right now, like literally as recently as yesterday, where I saw some four pillars, you know, stock rolling into a bar. And I'm like, you know, I had both, both positive and negative vibes around what was happening. And I
I don't really know what I meant to do about it because I can't be the guy who texts the marketing director or the head of sales and has a crack at them about something because it's not my job anymore. But I also can't be a guy who is negative and antsy about stuff to others. And I also, you know, I can't, I can't interfere.
with, you know, we've made a decision to sell the business and there are other people now running the business and you've got to give them their space. And that's not easy for me. I mean, you know, the other boys are still in the business so they can say whatever the bloody hell they want because they're still involved in the business on every day and they still get a salary. And equally, you know, I've got to be careful that I don't keep, you know, I just don't keep.
engaging with a business that I'm no longer employed by. Right? You've got to, you've got to, I mean, it actually is really difficult and it's probably going to be more, it's probably going to be difficult for the next, frankly, couple of years.
Michael (59:12.267)
Yeah.
Michael (59:21.966)
who knows, Stu, it's a very personal thing and it's deep-seated and it's completely understandable and natural and for you, for me, it's all gonna be different, but yeah, I mean, that just, evidence of how much the trip meant, in terms of starting it and getting it to where it is, but as we talked about the start, there'll be other opportunities that...
will really excite you and I'm sure that it sounds like you're getting plenty coming your way. You might get really good.
Stuart Gregor (59:59.651)
There's no shortage of options, I'm just not sure how many of them are good.
Michael (01:00:04.01)
We're getting good at saying, you know, this is, you know, this is in the to do pile or the, you know, the junk pile.
Stuart Gregor (01:00:09.891)
Yeah, look, I hope so. I hope so. Yeah, it's a, I think one of the interesting things without getting overly philosophical about life and being a middle-aged white man, but I think it's interesting and important to continually challenge yourself, right? And this is a challenge for me. It's not necessarily a challenge for me in creating something, but it's a challenge for me in-
figuring out how I can, if I can slow down or if I can make measured decisions, because I'm not necessarily good at that. I'm more about just drive and keep going for things and having a crack and if you fuck it up, just try another route and all that sort of stuff. And like, it's an interesting, I'm finding it a really, like a genuine.
challenge to pull back. Cause I'm not a pull, I'm not a pull back guy. I'm a push forward guy. And pull back is not my natural disposition. So I'll be interested to see if I'm even capable of doing it over the next six months to be honest.
Michael (01:01:08.191)
Yeah.
Cause your heart, your heart what?
Michael (01:01:20.045)
Yeah.
Michael (01:01:24.138)
Yeah, it's like, it's pretty, it is pretty fresh and raw. So, you know, I, I think if I could give you a little bit of counsel, just, you know, work your way through it. No, it's, um, you know, I have, I have dealt with a, a lot of owners and. They get to a point where they think they should sell. They get to the point where they have to sell, but however they get there afterwards, it's, it's.
Stuart Gregor (01:01:32.547)
Yeah? Please do.
Michael (01:01:53.374)
It's really different for a lot of them. And, and I, you know, so for me, I'm, I'm trying to, in the work I do, trying to encourage owners, when you think about having an exit, yeah, that, that's one of the things you ought to think about, but the others are, what are you going to do, where are you going to find, what are other ways to run your business? So you have a bit of, you know, a bit each way, but fundamentally, you know, I'm before you can answer any of those questions, you have to kind of.
ask yourself, you know, what am I happiest doing? And going from working and putting everything you've got, and that's not, you know, that can be being out of balance is probably not what we're advising here. But when you when you can't unequivocally can't constrain yourself, you're excited and you want to put everything into it. It's pretty hard to stop and go walk the dog or whatever. So, yeah, well.
Stuart Gregor (01:02:45.159)
Yeah. I need some hobbies. That's what I've realized. That's why golf is gonna become important. I need something to occupy my mind.
Michael (01:02:49.566)
Yeah, well, yeah, we all do. It's stimulating and it's healthy. And so, I'm sure I know you've got some commitments. Look, really enjoyed chatting through. Thank you for being so open and insightful about something that.
You know, it's gotten a lot of press and, you know, it's a big deal. Sound like Donald Trump. But, you know, it's a significant deal and it's, you know, congratulations to all three of you for, you know, going through that from the beginning to where you got to. And, but yeah.
Stuart Gregor (01:03:25.624)
Yeah.
Stuart Gregor (01:03:37.683)
Thanks man.
Michael (01:03:40.038)
It's, um, yeah, it's nothing, there's nothing for owners to hear from other owners and founders about, you know, what, what it was like. So I hope they, I'm sure they will take a lot out of today. I, I look forward to you and I, uh, catching up when you're down our way for that, that game of golf and, um, uh, Lonsdale links. Yeah. It's a beauty. So, um, Stu, anything you wanted to close out on in terms of, um,
Stuart Gregor (01:03:53.159)
Yeah, so... We're going to the, uh... Round the gaffer point, Lonnie. I mean... No-
Michael (01:04:10.61)
encouraging more people to get into small business and to stay in the way that works for them.
Stuart Gregor (01:04:17.519)
Yeah, look, I mean, I'm a huge advocate for small business, but I don't think anyone should ever underestimate how challenging and difficult it is, right? It's not an easy option. It's clearly the hard option. The easy option is you gotta get a job working for the man and in a big company and just...
suck it up and take a paycheck and do it. The small business is hard, but it's also infinitely more, in my opinion, this is my thinking, it's infinitely more satisfying than anything you will ever do in a business environment, because if you pick a small business and it's something that really is a passion of yours, and I was actually talking to one of my kids about this, because there's this generation of work-life balance, this whole idea of you gotta have work-life balance, and that's predicated on the fact that you hate work and love life.
Right? That you want to get it. So you need a balance between the two. Now, what I said is, what if your work is the most fun you have in your life? And everything you do, not every day is roses, right? But it's a job that satisfies you, that stimulates you, that encourages you, that makes you happy, that makes you really, you know, that pushes you in all manner of ways.
Michael (01:05:07.581)
Yeah.
Stuart Gregor (01:05:34.503)
then work-life balance disappears because work is great. And it'll help make life great too, because one of the reasons about work-life balance is such a challenge is because people come out of the work part of that grumpy and miserable and anxious. And if you come out of the work part of it, positive and vibey and energetic, then you're a better person to live with frankly. So your life side of it is probably is better.
And I love, I have loved my experience in Four Pillars and I've loved the 10 years that I had there. And I also loved my Liquid Ideas experience. And it's, and I've learned a lot from it about, not just about business and how to do deals and all that sort of stuff, but equally about myself and how I operate and...
I think it's made me better human at 54 than I might have been had I not done it. So I mean, look, if you're going to start a small business, don't ever think for a minute that it's going to be easy. It's a relentless slog, right? But it can be a hugely invigorating, relentless slog if you're doing something you truly love. And I was lucky in that regard. So and if the exit comes, and I don't even know if I'm capable.
Michael (01:06:39.854)
gratifying Yeah
Michael (01:06:46.626)
Hmm.
Stuart Gregor (01:06:56.311)
whether or not I'm ever gonna live this down. But if the exit comes and you do have to leave, leave with grace and try to pull the pin and don't second guess all the people who come after you and certainly don't disparage the people who come after you and don't roll your eyes that I would have done it better this way. It's a very strong, it's a very strong, it's a very strong.
There's like a giant magnet pulling you towards staying involved and you've just got to try to force yourself back out.
Michael (01:07:28.161)
Yeah.
And I think that when that exit does come, a fundamentally important decision you should have already made is what's next, what fills in. Because there is, you've just talked about, there is a gap. And it's not about, we're not talking about finances, financial stuff here, we're talking about purpose and...
commitment and fulfillment and all those things. And so, you know, any time contemplating getting out, you know, you've got to have a sense of what replaces that. It doesn't have to replace it at 50 hours or 60 hours a week, but you've got to have a view of what you can do next. So hey, Stu, Gregor, thanks very much. If anybody wanted to reach out to you, is there you happy for other?
Stuart Gregor (01:08:16.657)
Yeah.
Stuart Gregor (01:08:26.875)
Yeah, pop on, go on my LinkedIn, you've got my LinkedIn, haven't you? Is that the best way? Stuart Gregor.
Michael (01:08:31.018)
Yeah, so is it. So Stuart, Gregor and on LinkedIn and we'll put some. Yep. And again, thank you for your time and you stay well.
Stuart Gregor (01:08:36.847)
Send me a message.
Stuart Gregor (01:08:45.223)
Thank you, Michael. Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed the chat. Thanks a lot.
Michael (01:08:49.046)
Right, thanks Stu.