Sandy Chong has 39 years experience as a business owner, is CEO of The Australian Hairdressing Council and current COSBOA small business champion. In this episode she shares her thoughts on how industry bodies and Government can best help underpin hairdressing and other trades as successful and sustainable small businesses.
@Sandy Chong brings 39 years experience as a salon owner to her current role as CEO at @The Australian Hairdressing Council. She's the current @cosboa #smallbusinesschampion and has multiple other board and advisory roles that involve advocacy and improving effectiveness for industry bodies.
Sandy sold her own salon during 2023 to focus on her CEO role. In that role she is actively involved in advocating for small businesses and shaping the future of the industry. Her extensive background as a business owner gives her valuable insights to guide those aspiring to venture into entrepreneurship and business ownership after completing their trade apprenticeships.
In our discussion we talk about;
I think hairdressers often give back and I think that's one thing that really stands out for me, is they have really incredible business structures. They're incredibly generous to their staff, but it's the community generosity. - Sandy Chong
Visit the Australian Hairdressing Council website at www.ahc.org.au to learn more about the organization and its initiatives.
Timestamped summary of this episode:
00:00:12 - Introduction and Purpose of the Podcast
Michael Ker introduces the Small Business Banter podcast and its relevance to business owners, especially those looking to sell or buy a new business. He emphasizes the stress, emotions, and challenges involved in these processes.
00:01:21 - Sandy Chong's Background and Role
Sandy Chong shares her extensive background as the CEO of the Australian Hairdressers Council and her experience as a past salon owner for 39 years. She highlights the importance of developing relationships with clients and the unique challenges of the hairdressing industry.
00:07:20 - Career Opportunities in Hairdressing
Discussion on the potential career opportunities in the hairdressing industry, including the potential for financial success, international work, and diverse roles beyond salon ownership. Emphasis on the importance of education and training for career growth.
00:09:50 - Apprenticeship and Business Ownership
Sandy Chong reflects on her commitment to apprenticing her staff and the importance of finding the right buyer for her salon. She discusses the need for a pathway to guide talented practitioners toward business ownership and the challenges of running a business.
00:14:59 - Industry Support and Sustainability
Sandy Chong emphasizes the role of industry associations in educating and supporting business owners, particularly in navigating complex issues such as industrial relations and HR. The importance of belonging to an association for access to industry-specific information and support is highlighted.
00:16:25 - Migration Review and Industry Concerns
Sandy discusses the release of the migration review and expresses concern for the hairdressing industry's exclusion due to high sponsorship costs. She highlights the industry's need for sustainability and lower tismet.
00:17:37 - Challenges and Solutions for the Industry
Sandy addresses the skill shortage in the predominantly female hairdressing industry and emphasizes the importance of investing in apprenticeships and adapting to the changing preferences of younger workers. She also mentions the potential benefits of new jobs and skills councils.
00:19:38 - Encouraging School-Based Apprenticeships
Sandy discusses the potential of school-based apprenticeship programs and the benefits of group training organizations for higher completion rates. She also highlights the challenges faced by single operator salons and the financial barriers for young people entering the industry.
00:21:41 - Financial Management and Small Business Challenges
The conversation shifts to the financial challenges faced by small business owners, particularly in managing cash flow, profit and loss, and the complexities of industrial relations. Sandy emphasizes the need for education and support in understanding basic finances and business value.
00:32:01 - The Value of Small Businesses in Communities
Sandy and the host highlight the vital role of small businesses, including hairdressing, in supporting community well-being and mental health. They emphasize the personal and social aspects of the hairdressing experience, going beyond just a haircut.
00:33:05 - Passion for Small Business and Cosboa Small Business Champion Award
Sandy Chong discusses her deep passion for small business and receiving the Cosboa Small Business Champion Award in April. She highlights her role as an ambassador and her commitment to lobbying and advocacy work for small businesses.
00:35:36 - Driving Force behind Small Business Ownership
Sandy Chong shares her motivation for becoming a small business owner, emphasizing the inclusivity and culture of the hairdressing industry. She also discusses her desire to be a successful business person and contribute to the industry through education and training.
00:37:01 - The Mindset of Small Business Owners
The conversation delves into the mindset of small business owners, highlighting their humble beginnings, lack of strategic planning, and the drive to seize opportunities. The discussion also touches on the purpose, financial benefits, and challenges of small business ownership.
00:40:38 - Small Business Heroes and Inspirational Figures
Sandy Chong mentions several inspirational figures in the hairdressing industry, recognizing their ethical standards, charitable work, and community generosity. She emphasizes the impact of these individuals on the industry and their ability to inspire the next generation of small business owners.
00:43:22 - Reaching Out to Sandy Chong
Sandy Chong provides information on how to reach out to her as the CEO of the Australian Hairdressing Council and the current small business champion. She encourages individuals to visit the council's website and emphasizes her accessibility for inquiries and support.
Michael (00:00.889)
Welcome into another edition of Small Business Banter Podcast, episode or edition number 136, Sandy Chong joins me today. Big welcome, Sandy.
Sandy Chong (00:12.822)
Thank you for having me.
Michael (00:15.057)
Sandy is, there's a few things I want to read out about Sandy, but she's the current CEO of the Australian Hairdressers Council. She's been a past director of Cosboa. She's significantly the 2023 recipient of the National Small Business Champion Award from Cosboa. Big congrats on that. That was only a few months back. And also,
the past owner of your own hairdressing salon, which you sold recently after 39 years. So that's, congratulations also on that. That's a mighty fine performance, Sandy.
Sandy Chong (00:55.905)
Thank you.
Michael (00:57.873)
So what we're going to cover today broadly, I came across you when you're on addition of the drum on the ABC and you were chatting about closures of salons in your industry and that really piqued my interest. I'm going to talk about your beyond, you are a business owner, were a business owner up until very recently, but you're in an executive role with an industry association and I want to talk about
your take on the future of small business, what industry bodies can do about it, your personal experience as an owner, and critically the pathway from being an employee to being an owner, because there's a lot of small businesses right across the spectrum that I worry about who's gonna take them on. I mean, we need the jobs, but we also need someone to own it to...
to make the jobs and keep the jobs. So can you, so again, big welcome. Can you give us a few minutes on your background as an owner and your current role at the AHC?
Sandy Chong (02:08.714)
Yeah, sure. So, yes, I did own my business for 39 years. It was a hairdressing salon called Suki. It's based in Newcastle. However, I did also have one for 10 years in Paddington in Sydney. So at one stage I had around 45 staff altogether, but generally we would sit around between 15 and say 24 staff in Newcastle. By the time I sold, I had got it under that magic number of 15 for IR reasons and wanting to sell.
But yeah, I've had a really big career when it comes to my business and me personally, especially in the industry. I've been, I guess, a keynote speaker and presenter nationally as well as internationally where I've developed workshops on business. And most of those messages there were all about engaging staff and how to keep staff. I think probably one thing that was unique with my business.
except for one girl who was from the UK out here on a visa and is still with them, with my business that sold. All of my staff were my apprentices. So I was a homegrown business. There's probably one thing in the hairdressing industry, we've been, you know, we've experienced a skill shortage now for over 20 years. And the one thing that I maintain is that poaching staff from other salons or other businesses.
is not a solution to a skill shortage. So we grew our own and we've always believed in that. My role with the CEO of the Australian Heritage Council, I just sort of rolled into that and during the pandemic, of course, it really meant that we really did step up a lot in representing the industry because it was such a harsh time. But I've been the CEO since 2012 and Director on the Board.
And the OHC was first developed because we really didn't have a voice to the government. We really didn't have a voice that represented us. And being hairdressing, we're sort of part of the arts, if you were going to explain, what part of the trades do we represent? And we go under the arts. And sometimes the arts or creative industries can get a bit overlooked by the government or dismissed by the government or even seen as, I guess, frivolous by the government. You know, we're not taken as seriously as the engineers.
Sandy Chong (04:28.706)
you know, the mining, you know, the mining companies of the world. And so we're small businesses. And so we thought it was time that we got a voice.
Michael (04:38.701)
Yeah. And so were you CEO while you were also, you were owner of the salon. So, um, that's for quite some time. Yeah.
Sandy Chong (04:49.066)
Yeah, I gave up my Paddington salon to work full time for the AOC and I haven't worked on the floor. My salon is actually right next door to my office, so I can look down there right now and it's closed today. But usually I walk in the front door, I still see everybody. And I think probably one of the main things that anyone becomes a hairdresser, no one becomes a hairdresser to make lots of money. They become a hairdresser because they just love doing hair and they love looking after people.
I think what's really unique is the relationships that we develop with the clients that come into the salon. And there's lots of laughs, hopefully not too many tears, but you do go through their births, their deaths, their marriages, their boyfriends, their breakups, their kids growing up, going to college, their marriages, their grandchildren. So we develop these relationships. And it's one thing that I certainly loved about my career. But the thing is I can still walk in the front door, say hi to everyone, sit down in my office right now.
But I do slip out every now and then just say hi to all the, you know, the clients that I've known for years and years.
Michael (05:52.209)
You're up close and personal for hours with people. Yeah. You said something interesting there. You don't go into hairdressing to make a lot of money, but is there, yeah, right.
Sandy Chong (06:06.85)
There is potential there though, absolutely. There is potential for anyone who does well, but in any trade, in any industry, in any job, it comes down to how productive you are, isn't it? And how, I guess how resourceful you are. And I do believe in education training, the more you learn, the more you earn, and the more you invest in yourself. So I think anyone who's an individual in any trade, if they really put the hard work in, and if they put a lot of...
time and money and energy into their own education training and not expect others to be responsible for that on their own. But I think if you really take on that accountability, then there's huge opportunities there. Now bear in mind you can be a selling owner in hairdressing. Yes, you could work for someone and earn very good money if you're a productive hairdresser. That means you've got a really good clientele. But also too, I've worked all around the world and when I lived in Canada, I'd cut hair.
If you are a hairdresser, you can work anywhere in the world. You can work in movies and editorial work and, you know, TVs or you can be an educator. Many of our GMs of our companies are hairdressers. You can be sales reps or, you know, there are endless opportunities if you actually use hairdressing as your base, yeah.
Michael (07:24.862)
Yeah, it's a big industry. So you took on the role of apprenticing a lot of your staff, I think just about everybody except someone that came from the UK, which is an extraordinary commitment. Is it a three-year apprenticeship?
Sandy Chong (07:41.538)
is yeah it is three years now I think every one of my apprentices had probably maybe except for one or two had gone through the four year apprenticeship but once I sold the salon I had staff that had been with me for who had worked with me even outside of the salon so 40 years 30 years 28 years 26 years 20 years 18 years just going through them all 18 years 12 years seven years and
They were my seniors. So even my coordinator had been with me for 20, 26 years, I think.
Michael (08:18.489)
Yeah. Who ended up buying your sell-on? Was it one of the team or was it somebody from outside?
Sandy Chong (08:28.894)
No, we've actually been approached a lot to buy Suki and no one really suited, but last year, really good friend of mine, one of my best friends, in fact, passed away unexpectedly. He was the CEO of Turning Guys. So Turning Guys is a global company. And in Australia, Dennis Langford was the CEO of the Australian. He was the Australian franchise. So he passed away and.
you know, that was really devastating for me. But I kept in contact with his wife every week and just to check in on how she was. And she took over as CEO. And one day she said to me, and it all happened really quickly. She said, oh Sandy, you know, the leadership team want to open in Newcastle. And I just said, well, why don't you buy Suki? And I must admit, during the pandemic, so 2020, 2021, 22.
And then, you know, the recovery of the pandemic and, you know, the cost of running a business nowadays. I just really haven't been able to, I guess, commit the time to my own business. And so the timing was perfect. They'll do an amazing job. And they're the only, I think, organization that I trusted to take care of all of my team.
Michael (09:44.601)
I think that's one of the, it's a big differentiator for a lot of owners in whether that, or a factor in whether they'll sell or not. Is the business going to a good home?
Sandy Chong (09:57.462)
That's right. And I've turned people down before because I didn't like them. I knew that they did not have my staff's interests at, you know, at heart. And I've been offered a lot more money, but in the end, it was like, who's going to look after my team? And Tony and Guy ran out of their education and training worldwide. So, you know, it was, and it was sort of like, I guess Dennis's legacy, my legacy, I couldn't have asked for, you know, like a better company to buy myself.
Michael (10:28.79)
Yeah, okay. So, yeah, as I said at the start, one of the themes is sustaining the industry. Now, you're actively involved in that in your role as CEO of AHC. And I guess I'm really intrigued as to what you think is, is there a need to create more of a pathway?
to be an excellent practitioner, do an apprenticeship, but also to incorporate in that more about what it means to be a business owner. There's a lot of people don't wanna be, that's fine, but I think there's some talent and potential needs a bit of guidance to take that step because it is a big one or can be a big one to become an owner. What are your thoughts on?
Sandy Chong (11:16.542)
Yeah, it is. And look, one of the main reasons the AHC actually was developed was we created accreditation processes that recognize ethical business practices. And a whole part of that is going through a checklist, but we supply a lot of resources and support. You know, when it comes to our trade and many others, you know, we may have some excellent hairdressers and they're also very good on Instagram, but when it comes to technical ability, and when it comes to
business ability, then sometimes they need that extra education. So running a business is hard. Okay. And no matter, I think how experienced you are, even for me, running a business is not easy. And I think there's a lot of factors that contribute to that. But, with the OHC, I guess we do our best to educate the business owners because they come out, they're great hairdressers, but when they start to employ staff,
There's trouble, they don't understand the award. Industrial relations is way too complicated. And they just really don't understand KPIs, what they should be paying in rent. And they can get ripped off really easily by landlords, et cetera. So, our role is to guide them, help them, and make sure that they do have HR advice, sort of that type of thing. I would suggest to anyone in business to make sure that you belong to an association.
because it's the information, the backup that you can receive from that association that is specifically representing your industry. I think that's important.
Michael (12:51.981)
Yeah, it's a really lonely place being an owner out there. You know, you could be in a shopping center amongst hundreds of other businesses, but it's still, I think, largely a lonely exercise when you have some challenges or when you have some really exciting opportunities, you're not quite sure who to share them with or how to go about it. So that's why industry bodies and the work you do is vitally important. And yeah, you encourage everybody to.
any owner to become part of their industry body or at least networks and get amongst other business owners because the problems are pretty universal and share the load a little. So the industry, how do you see the... I just keep thinking about, I think one of the things
Sandy Chong (13:34.182)
Exactly.
Michael (13:51.357)
through the skilled migration program because the industry needs them. And that you said, and poaching them from competitors, it doesn't net-net help the industry overall. So really your thoughts on where the industry is at, what it needs to do as an industry to sustain it so people can be assured of a quality haircut for the next...
Sandy Chong (14:18.146)
Yeah, well, you brought up a couple of things there. So I know that with today, there's been the release of the migration review and I've cast my eyes over it already. I think again, hairdressing though has missed out because the Tismet, which is the minimum amount that you are to pay someone if you're sponsoring them, is too high for our industry. So the government has looked after the much higher end industries where the wages are.
135,000 and up. So unfortunately, we've missed out there. Part of my role, though, is lobbying and doing the advocacy work on behalf of the industry. And so I know that we will, and we have been lobbying for a low-autism anyway. We've been on the skill shortage list for over 20 years. How do we grow our industry and make sure there is a sustainability factor there? The hard thing is we're over 80% female. And what happens is we have a skill shortage
They have babies and stay at home and they may come back, but if they do, it's part time. So, you know, we become an underproductive industry. We always have that skill shortage. I think investing in apprenticeships is important and growing your own. It is an investment of time, money and your energy. And do they all stay? And the answer is no. You know, time's very different to 10 years ago and 20 years ago. And, you know, there's a transference of, I guess,
younger people who like to move between the trades. One thing that is, or I hope that will be better in our future in all trades for that matter, is the new jobs and skills councils and what they will do is they're looking at not just training packages, which are very dated, but training, I guess, products where you can move amongst a trade and capture, I guess, certain units of learning.
versus being stuck into one trade, because many industries like ours have a very low completion rate. So we lose 63% of our apprentices in the first year, and there's a few reasons for that. But if they can move units around, that means that you could start somewhere, move to another trade and not lose anything, and then go to another trade.
Michael (16:32.873)
Yeah, it's so important that it's really difficult for someone to know at an age where they're starting an apprenticeship that this is the thing they want to do. And maybe it's, I don't want to go to a more formal tertiary route and do a course and switch between trades. It says that they're interested in
in acquiring some skills and maybe they're going to move around a bit. Yeah, it shouldn't be penalized, it shouldn't be so much weight on them that this is the one thing they've chosen and that's it, whether they like it or not.
Sandy Chong (17:06.826)
Yeah. And they have to, yeah, and they have to start again. Although the data shows a lot of success with SBAT. So, you know, kids that start a trade while they're at school in year 11 and year 12. And that's showing a lot of promise. So, you know, we're working with, you know, different, I guess, departments to try and encourage that. So more school based apprentice trainees. So they work in a business one day a week. They go to college one day a week and they go to school the other three.
Michael (17:21.077)
Okay.
Sandy Chong (17:36.706)
and it's part of their high school certificate. The other one that we're looking at too is group training organizations because they seem to have a higher completion rate and it's because of the mentoring that happens with them. So that doesn't happen in our industry and I really think it would be really great if we could get, you know, if we could be part of that. But I think our sell-on's not quite used to that idea that they don't quite know how that works.
Michael (18:00.393)
Yeah, as you said, it can be a disruption when you're worrying about all the other things that come with running a business, but it is so pleasing to hear when there are employers, smaller businesses who employ so many Australians that they will open their door one day a week. And I think that's a part of the answer is to have exposure to small businesses as an employer.
as challenging as it can be. The bigger organizations do a great job. However, if you go in and you see what goes on in a small business, even at a young age, I'm sure it leaves an impression straight away, whether it's perhaps good, bad or otherwise.
Sandy Chong (18:45.91)
Well, I think a lot of people too think that what goes in the till goes in your pocket. That's certainly not the case, as you know, with small business. Most small business people, or all small business people, pay themselves last. And many will actually get paid a lot less in their staff. And when we go home, we worry about our business. We go to bed, we worry about our business. We wake up, we worry about our business.
Michael (19:10.361)
Yeah, and the people that you're employing, yeah, it is. But as you say, that education, there's a lot of education that can be done and good on, you know, and other industry bodies for doing that, just, you know, to make owners more aware of the basic finances of a business, you know, cash, you know, yeah, cashing is not what you, you know, necessarily take out. We all wanna have, you know, the cash is...
Cash flow is a great thing, but you've got to manage it. And that's, if you haven't been exposed to cash flow, profit and loss, management accounts, it can look completely overwhelming. I see that all the time with owners. But it's also not rocket science once you've had a bit of training and a bit of awareness through.
Sandy Chong (19:59.57)
I think accountants don't speak our language either. And you know, you look at a P&L and it just, it's just, it doesn't really make sense. I've always worked on percentages. So I like to know what percentage were my wages, what percentage is my supply cost, what percentage is my rent, you know? And so I always would work off percentages. And even when we speak to hairdressers and their staff, we'll talk about 100 cents or, you know, which equals 100 per cent.
and what percentage should be on your stock, all of that type of thing. And I find that sometimes in much easier way. Sometimes I think if an accountant could just talk like that, then we'd get it straight away.
Michael (20:40.849)
Yeah, that's right. And I think there's some fantastic accountants doing some great work explaining to owners what the bottom line is and what you should do to make it better and in a language they understand. But for many it's, and its owners as well, they just want to get the quarterly BAS done and then they want to get the tax return done and then they leave all that information.
and go back to what they were doing a couple of hours before, which is managing staff and working out how they're going to pay the rent. I have those conversations more towards the end of someone's ownership when they're looking to sell and a lot of business owners, they manage by looking at a few KPIs. Maybe it's cash in the bank, maybe it's the work in progress or whatever the industry
fundamentally most haven't closely analyzed their numbers over the preceding years and really have little or out of kilter expectations about what that translates to in terms of business value for a buyer. So yeah, but that's education. With your role, you...
Do you want to just, you had six years and that's one of the premier small business advocacy organizations and is that a role that you let go only just recently?
Sandy Chong (22:22.546)
I let go at the end of my six year tenure. So that was in, I think it was 2021. And yeah, so 2021. And, but we are still very active. I think the one of the amazing things, so it's Cosmo is the Council of Small Business Organisations of Australia. So they're members, organisations that represent small business. And so what is really, I guess what happened during the pandemic, of course, is we all had virtual meetings.
Michael (22:28.374)
Okay, it's a few years back. Yeah
Sandy Chong (22:50.534)
And Cosboa did set up, you know, sort of meetings every fortnightly or monthly with all of their members. And they've continued to do that. So I have to admit, the good thing is being on the board, it is a lot of work. You know, I certainly take my hat off to all of the directors of Cosboa because the work is huge. However, being able to attend, I'm on a lot of committees, so I should say that I may not be on the board, but I'm there.
Education and Training, the VET committee. I'm on a whole heap of other committees, the Shadow Economy Advisory Forum, the ACCC committee on small business, green washing. I don't know, I'm on a whole lot of different committees that come under COSBOA, the Migration Committee, that come under COSBOA anyway, which is really valuable.
But I think the thing that I've learned from Cosboa as well is how to run an association. I think that was really important. And when you were talking before about small business and networking with other like-minded people, one of the values of Cosboa is being able to actually speak with any of those members all the time, whether it is about leasing and...
dealing with landlords or whether it is to do with the cost of running a business at the moment, industrial relations, migration, everything that you just said before. You know, being with Cospro, whether on the board or off the board, it's an incredibly, I think it's a real value to our organisation and the industry.
Michael (24:26.245)
Yeah, we keep, you know, small business is for good, bad, or otherwise is, it really is the backbone of the, and we've, we're so dominated by a small number of big companies and we can argue about all the, you know, the value contributed and the dollars, but there's a lot of, there's a lot of small businesses and a lot of employees employed by small business. The, the one, the one.
sort of point that keeps making me feel a little uneasy is the recognition of the, I think it's 1.2 million zero employee small businesses. So within the overall definition of what is a small business, 80% of them are zero employees. But there's a lot of those that are legit in inverted commas businesses.
They might choose to be, have zero employees or they might contract out some work, but they're running businesses and they're, they're standalone businesses. But however you, they're independent. They, you know, they do, they've got their own, usually got their own BAS, GST registration and have to, have to do all the compliance stuff. So it's not as easy as just taking a salary every week and not have to worry about any paperwork, but that's, you know, that's the one thing.
personal services type businesses, hairdressing, barbering would come under that. So they need to get more of a credibility, more focus.
Sandy Chong (26:07.926)
Yeah, we do have a membership called SOS, Single Operator, Salon. And they also go through the checklist and we have things available for that. 70% of our industry are now single operators. So I hear what you're saying. But we actually do recommend that they can also take on apprentices if they want to. And the issue is, and I know you were talking about selling a business, but the cost of living at the moment, not many small people.
Michael (26:13.358)
Oh yeah.
Sandy Chong (26:36.742)
small people, sorry, not many young people. I'm short, they used to call me little Sandy and I hated that for years and years and years. Couldn't wait to get rid of that one. But, you know, a lot of the younger people do not have the money to buy a business. And so, unfortunately, there are quite a few businesses in our industry that are just closing the doors and they're going to rent a space. Now, the thing is with a single operator, it could be a stepping stone to opening up a business, just being able to, you know, sort of
try on your own and I'd much rather someone I guess go out and be on their own rather than take half my staff for instance. So there are reasons why we have so many operators who are single operators now in our industry. The flexibility and the flexibility is one you know and it's really difficult with the government and with industry relations that doesn't permit the flexibility that staff demand and want and if you're not going to give it to me I'll go out on my own that's one.
Michael (27:19.737)
Yeah, good raisins.
Sandy Chong (27:35.022)
Having families again, the flexibility. But for some owners, industrial relations have made it really hard to employ staff. It's probably every business's biggest stress is employing staff. And the cost of that is increasing with all of the entitlements and also the changes that IARC represents.
Michael (28:00.709)
Well, if you look at the P&L of every business, human resources, employees and rent, unless you're a manufacturing business, they're your two major costs and expenses and they represent 80, 90%, but sometimes even more. And so everything else pales into insignificance.
Michael (28:31.301)
giant forces there, the IR, the regulations around employing people and the complexity. And if you're renting a place, you talked about people not being able to afford to buy a business, they can't afford to live in houses as well. Maybe it's a choice between a house and a business. But that's compressing the
I think the incentive is there for a lot of people to do their own thing, but you can't afford it to have both. It's not quite sure where that all ends, but people want to get their hair cut, so I guess it'll find its way somehow.
Sandy Chong (29:20.35)
I think the pandemic really showed communities that, you know, we're a very valuable part. And that's where small business is great, OK? When you talk about this, you know, there's the duopolies out there, as in the Coles, the Woolworths. But we look at community businesses, small businesses, and what we do for our community. Now, with hairdressing, it's part of everybody's self-esteem, their confidence, but it's also a big part of their mental health.
And that's where we feel that our industry is very important to our communities.
Michael (29:54.565)
I agree fully. I think the consumers, the customers, clients look forward to that debrief as well as a haircut. And it's a vital role in socializing and having someone that you're so up close and personal with for two, three hours while you're getting your haircut. So I agree fully. That's.
the nobility of, you know, over and above a great haircut, there's, I'm sure a lot of people would be the worst without it.
Sandy Chong (30:30.862)
plus we'd know a lot of your secrets too. Alex is sealed, don't worry.
Michael (30:35.521)
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, that's right. It's a cone of silence. I wanted to finish on, you reeled off X number of things that you're involved with and I can, you know, in terms of on committees and boards and advisories. So I understand you've got a, like a deep passion for small business.
Sandy Chong (30:44.238)
Hehehe
Michael (31:05.421)
And that was, you received, I think in April, the Cosboa Small Business Champion Award. So is that, can you just tell us a little bit about what that involved? Is that you'd be like an ambassador for the year, is that, and go out and talk about small business in that role?
Sandy Chong (31:27.748)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think it's to do with your lobbying and, you know, the advocacy work that you do. And Bruce Billson is the small business and family enterprise ombudsman. And he always says that there's one thing about leaders and the true leaders turn up, okay. And, you know, I guess it's one thing that I've always tried to do. I think I've missed hardly any Cosmo meetings. You count them on one hand since 2012.
And when it comes to speak, I'll drive down to Canberra for one hour meeting. It's a five hour drive for me. Go to Parliament House, stay one hour and drive back. And so, you know, I think that's the thing that I do is I turn up as much as I can to everything. I speak to the government on a state and federal level. And I guess because I've been in the industry for 50 years, I own my own business for 39, employed a lot of apprentices. I do know what I'm talking about.
when it comes to representing our industry. I've walked in their shoes, definitely walked in their shoes. So when it comes to any aspect, any part of our industry, I guess I sort of know, but if I don't know, I'll go and source what I do need to know. But I think I was recognized with that award just quite simply because my face is always in their face. And, but mind you, Cospo has been really generous in making sure I'm included in a lot of things too.
Michael (32:55.557)
Yeah, well, as far as I can see, you have all the hallmarks of someone that should get an award like that in 39 years and to successfully sell, pass on to another buyer that's going to run the business in the way you think is appropriate. And you've trained all these people, you've kind of fed the industry and it's a great achievement.
drove you in the first place, it's gone back away, but to be a small business owner, I suspect whatever it is, it's still there now as a driver for you.
Sandy Chong (33:32.19)
Oh, I know what drove me to be a hairdresser. You know, it's a very inclusive industry. And I loved the whole tribe and the vibe and I loved the culture and how colorful hairdressing is. And I think that's one thing about our industry, we're very inclusive of anyone. And I was subjected to a lot of bullying when I was young because I'm part Chinese. And when I walked into a salon, it was just exciting. Do you know what I mean?
But as far as opening my own salon, I worked for someone who wasn't a good business person and I wanted to be a good business person. I wanted to have a successful business and I knew that if everyone around me was successful with me, then I would be successful too. And I just loved, I guess, helping others, teaching others. I know that I've contributed a lot to the industry as far as education, training, business goes.
And I guess I just really enjoyed having my own business. It's hard work. You know, it is not easy work, it's hard work. And when I had the Paddington salon, I would have worked six days and four nights for 10 years. I don't remember that part of my life in fact, but I think, I don't know, small business people are generally drivers. I mean, they're a different personality, aren't they? You know, they're out there and they're doing it.
Michael (34:54.061)
Yeah, look, they are and I'm always intrigued as to what it was the trigger for someone to get into their business and mostly they're pretty humble and mostly it's sort of less strategic and more, you know, they saw an opportunity and they don't consider themselves entrepreneurs. They just saw someone that saw an opportunity and they go and do it and they see themselves
mainly as a business owner. Yeah, it's really, it's always deeply fascinating and they, in a lot of cases are doing it because there's purpose and there's other, there's financial benefits. Sometimes they're really significant. Sometimes, often they earn themselves a wage and some decent profits and they've got a lot of flexibility but they feel like they're doing something that.
they're connected to. Not everyone, they all have their bad days of course, but yeah, it's um.
Sandy Chong (35:50.986)
Yeah.
Oh, and I've made, I've probably made more mistakes than most business people too, I think, right from day one, because our business flew and I had nothing in place, no policies, no procedures, no idea what I was doing. But I did have a very strong clientele. So I made huge mistakes. And I, you know, I did right to, you know, for 39 years I made mistakes. But I guess, look, I just really loved what I was doing. And...
I have had very few holidays, I'll admit that. The most time I've had off was five weeks when I had my daughter. Other than that, it was the first five years I didn't have a holiday at all. My holidays would be a Sunday and a Monday. And I was pretty excited to get two days off in a row. But yeah, look, small business people, they do work hard and they often don't have a strategy in place. And I was one of them. I had no plans except to open those doors.
Michael (36:26.311)
Hehehe
Sandy Chong (36:53.019)
And I guess from an HSC perspective, we try and capture those new business people so that we can help them. So they don't make the mistakes like I made.
Michael (37:01.645)
Yeah, there's plenty of people that have made the same mistake and sometimes more than once. And that networking thing again, or that industry, take advantage of that because you don't have to face all of these new challenges like you're the only one that's ever faced them. And yeah, so you're sorry, you're about to.
Sandy Chong (37:21.666)
Yeah.
Sandy Chong (37:25.07)
I was going to say some don't join an association because they're a little bit scared. They think you'll judge them or something. And also too, like I've laid off being saying to potential people, you know, when I go to the industry, I go, the first thing I need to let you know is I'm not a regulator. We're not a regulator because sometimes, you know, they'll see that you're an association. They think they're going to get into trouble or something. It's like, no, we're here to support you. We're here to represent you.
And if things go wrong, then come to us and let us know. That type of thing.
Michael (37:59.713)
Excellent. Sandy, I was going to ask just to close out for today, do you have any particular small business heroes or resources that you use on a regular basis to keep, particularly you're still in a, you're just out of your business, but was there any people you particularly admired in blogs or books that you read?
Sandy Chong (38:31.66)
I think I just really enjoy certain people in the industry who, as you say, are humble, who have really great ethical standards in place with their staff. There's some really wonderful people in our industry. Off the top of my head, Jenny Tarrant from Bond Religion has done so much charity work, it's mind boggling.
You know, and Jenny is probably one of the most beautiful people in the world who has raised no end of charitable funds and supporting homeless or those out of work with her particular cell. Helen Owens from Tigerland, Brisbane is another one. Lots of humanitarian work. I think hairdressers often give back. And
You know, I think that's one thing that really stands out for me, is they have really incredible business structures. They're incredibly generous to their staff, but it's the community generosity that, you know, I love watching these people. Brendan Mann from Epic in Brisbane is another one. Brody Signares is a young business owner who has incredible, I guess, ethos with her apprentices.
But in saying that Charlene Lee over in Perth, insanely good business in Perth, her sounds good circles. So there's too many heroes for me to mention, I have to admit. I'll miss someone and I'll feel terrible. It'll be like, oh, I didn't mention them.
Michael (40:02.673)
Yeah, but, yeah, and they're champions of small business and hopefully can in that way, share some of that through the industry body to kind of motivate and inspire the next generation who might be a 15 or 16 year old deciding that they want to take the pathway of a trade. So.
Sandy, thanks so much. I really enjoyed the discussion. And to chat with someone who's so steeped in small business is really enlightening and enjoyable. So thank you.
Sandy Chong (40:46.53)
Thank you for having me.
Michael (40:49.825)
If someone wanted to reach out in your capacity as the CEO of the hairdressing council or in your capacity as the current small business champion, what's the easiest way for them assuming?
Sandy Chong (41:04.278)
So probably the easiest way to remember is just go to the Australian Hairdressing Council website and there'll be a contact us and I actually get all those emails anyway, I see them. I have a team that if I do miss one of them because they open them up, they'll send it to me. So that's probably the easiest way to go to our website.
Michael (41:20.677)
Yeah, okay. Yeah, well, we'll put the website in the show notes. And so if you're listening, don't worry. It'll be in the show notes. Maybe we should just call it out anyway, the website. Just someone's.
Sandy Chong (41:33.366)
So it's www.vahc.org.au. So T-H-E-A-H-C.org.au.
Michael (41:44.781)
Excellent. All right, Sandy, great chat. Thanks so much for your time. I wish you well.
Sandy Chong (41:49.378)
Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.
Michael (41:57.344)
Alrighty.
Michael (00:00.889)
Welcome into another edition of Small Business Banter Podcast, episode or edition number 136, Sandy Chong joins me today. Big welcome, Sandy.
Sandy Chong (00:12.822)
Thank you for having me.
Michael (00:15.057)
Sandy is, there's a few things I want to read out about Sandy, but she's the current CEO of the Australian Hairdressers Council. She's been a past director of Cosboa. She's significantly the 2023 recipient of the National Small Business Champion Award from Cosboa. Big congrats on that. That was only a few months back. And also,
the past owner of your own hairdressing salon, which you sold recently after 39 years. So that's, congratulations also on that. That's a mighty fine performance, Sandy.
Sandy Chong (00:55.905)
Thank you.
Michael (00:57.873)
So what we're going to cover today broadly, I came across you when you're on addition of the drum on the ABC and you were chatting about closures of salons in your industry and that really piqued my interest. I'm going to talk about your beyond, you are a business owner, were a business owner up until very recently, but you're in an executive role with an industry association and I want to talk about
your take on the future of small business, what industry bodies can do about it, your personal experience as an owner, and critically the pathway from being an employee to being an owner, because there's a lot of small businesses right across the spectrum that I worry about who's gonna take them on. I mean, we need the jobs, but we also need someone to own it to...
to make the jobs and keep the jobs. So can you, so again, big welcome. Can you give us a few minutes on your background as an owner and your current role at the AHC?
Sandy Chong (02:08.714)
Yeah, sure. So, yes, I did own my business for 39 years. It was a hairdressing salon called Suki. It's based in Newcastle. However, I did also have one for 10 years in Paddington in Sydney. So at one stage I had around 45 staff altogether, but generally we would sit around between 15 and say 24 staff in Newcastle. By the time I sold, I had got it under that magic number of 15 for IR reasons and wanting to sell.
But yeah, I've had a really big career when it comes to my business and me personally, especially in the industry. I've been, I guess, a keynote speaker and presenter nationally as well as internationally where I've developed workshops on business. And most of those messages there were all about engaging staff and how to keep staff. I think probably one thing that was unique with my business.
except for one girl who was from the UK out here on a visa and is still with them, with my business that sold. All of my staff were my apprentices. So I was a homegrown business. There's probably one thing in the hairdressing industry, we've been, you know, we've experienced a skill shortage now for over 20 years. And the one thing that I maintain is that poaching staff from other salons or other businesses.
is not a solution to a skill shortage. So we grew our own and we've always believed in that. My role with the CEO of the Australian Heritage Council, I just sort of rolled into that and during the pandemic, of course, it really meant that we really did step up a lot in representing the industry because it was such a harsh time. But I've been the CEO since 2012 and Director on the Board.
And the OHC was first developed because we really didn't have a voice to the government. We really didn't have a voice that represented us. And being hairdressing, we're sort of part of the arts, if you were going to explain, what part of the trades do we represent? And we go under the arts. And sometimes the arts or creative industries can get a bit overlooked by the government or dismissed by the government or even seen as, I guess, frivolous by the government. You know, we're not taken as seriously as the engineers.
Sandy Chong (04:28.706)
you know, the mining, you know, the mining companies of the world. And so we're small businesses. And so we thought it was time that we got a voice.
Michael (04:38.701)
Yeah. And so were you CEO while you were also, you were owner of the salon. So, um, that's for quite some time. Yeah.
Sandy Chong (04:49.066)
Yeah, I gave up my Paddington salon to work full time for the AOC and I haven't worked on the floor. My salon is actually right next door to my office, so I can look down there right now and it's closed today. But usually I walk in the front door, I still see everybody. And I think probably one of the main things that anyone becomes a hairdresser, no one becomes a hairdresser to make lots of money. They become a hairdresser because they just love doing hair and they love looking after people.
I think what's really unique is the relationships that we develop with the clients that come into the salon. And there's lots of laughs, hopefully not too many tears, but you do go through their births, their deaths, their marriages, their boyfriends, their breakups, their kids growing up, going to college, their marriages, their grandchildren. So we develop these relationships. And it's one thing that I certainly loved about my career. But the thing is I can still walk in the front door, say hi to everyone, sit down in my office right now.
But I do slip out every now and then just say hi to all the, you know, the clients that I've known for years and years.
Michael (05:52.209)
You're up close and personal for hours with people. Yeah. You said something interesting there. You don't go into hairdressing to make a lot of money, but is there, yeah, right.
Sandy Chong (06:06.85)
There is potential there though, absolutely. There is potential for anyone who does well, but in any trade, in any industry, in any job, it comes down to how productive you are, isn't it? And how, I guess how resourceful you are. And I do believe in education training, the more you learn, the more you earn, and the more you invest in yourself. So I think anyone who's an individual in any trade, if they really put the hard work in, and if they put a lot of...
time and money and energy into their own education training and not expect others to be responsible for that on their own. But I think if you really take on that accountability, then there's huge opportunities there. Now bear in mind you can be a selling owner in hairdressing. Yes, you could work for someone and earn very good money if you're a productive hairdresser. That means you've got a really good clientele. But also too, I've worked all around the world and when I lived in Canada, I'd cut hair.
If you are a hairdresser, you can work anywhere in the world. You can work in movies and editorial work and, you know, TVs or you can be an educator. Many of our GMs of our companies are hairdressers. You can be sales reps or, you know, there are endless opportunities if you actually use hairdressing as your base, yeah.
Michael (07:24.862)
Yeah, it's a big industry. So you took on the role of apprenticing a lot of your staff, I think just about everybody except someone that came from the UK, which is an extraordinary commitment. Is it a three-year apprenticeship?
Sandy Chong (07:41.538)
is yeah it is three years now I think every one of my apprentices had probably maybe except for one or two had gone through the four year apprenticeship but once I sold the salon I had staff that had been with me for who had worked with me even outside of the salon so 40 years 30 years 28 years 26 years 20 years 18 years just going through them all 18 years 12 years seven years and
They were my seniors. So even my coordinator had been with me for 20, 26 years, I think.
Michael (08:18.489)
Yeah. Who ended up buying your sell-on? Was it one of the team or was it somebody from outside?
Sandy Chong (08:28.894)
No, we've actually been approached a lot to buy Suki and no one really suited, but last year, really good friend of mine, one of my best friends, in fact, passed away unexpectedly. He was the CEO of Turning Guys. So Turning Guys is a global company. And in Australia, Dennis Langford was the CEO of the Australian. He was the Australian franchise. So he passed away and.
you know, that was really devastating for me. But I kept in contact with his wife every week and just to check in on how she was. And she took over as CEO. And one day she said to me, and it all happened really quickly. She said, oh Sandy, you know, the leadership team want to open in Newcastle. And I just said, well, why don't you buy Suki? And I must admit, during the pandemic, so 2020, 2021, 22.
And then, you know, the recovery of the pandemic and, you know, the cost of running a business nowadays. I just really haven't been able to, I guess, commit the time to my own business. And so the timing was perfect. They'll do an amazing job. And they're the only, I think, organization that I trusted to take care of all of my team.
Michael (09:44.601)
I think that's one of the, it's a big differentiator for a lot of owners in whether that, or a factor in whether they'll sell or not. Is the business going to a good home?
Sandy Chong (09:57.462)
That's right. And I've turned people down before because I didn't like them. I knew that they did not have my staff's interests at, you know, at heart. And I've been offered a lot more money, but in the end, it was like, who's going to look after my team? And Tony and Guy ran out of their education and training worldwide. So, you know, it was, and it was sort of like, I guess Dennis's legacy, my legacy, I couldn't have asked for, you know, like a better company to buy myself.
Michael (10:28.79)
Yeah, okay. So, yeah, as I said at the start, one of the themes is sustaining the industry. Now, you're actively involved in that in your role as CEO of AHC. And I guess I'm really intrigued as to what you think is, is there a need to create more of a pathway?
to be an excellent practitioner, do an apprenticeship, but also to incorporate in that more about what it means to be a business owner. There's a lot of people don't wanna be, that's fine, but I think there's some talent and potential needs a bit of guidance to take that step because it is a big one or can be a big one to become an owner. What are your thoughts on?
Sandy Chong (11:16.542)
Yeah, it is. And look, one of the main reasons the AHC actually was developed was we created accreditation processes that recognize ethical business practices. And a whole part of that is going through a checklist, but we supply a lot of resources and support. You know, when it comes to our trade and many others, you know, we may have some excellent hairdressers and they're also very good on Instagram, but when it comes to technical ability, and when it comes to
business ability, then sometimes they need that extra education. So running a business is hard. Okay. And no matter, I think how experienced you are, even for me, running a business is not easy. And I think there's a lot of factors that contribute to that. But, with the OHC, I guess we do our best to educate the business owners because they come out, they're great hairdressers, but when they start to employ staff,
There's trouble, they don't understand the award. Industrial relations is way too complicated. And they just really don't understand KPIs, what they should be paying in rent. And they can get ripped off really easily by landlords, et cetera. So, our role is to guide them, help them, and make sure that they do have HR advice, sort of that type of thing. I would suggest to anyone in business to make sure that you belong to an association.
because it's the information, the backup that you can receive from that association that is specifically representing your industry. I think that's important.
Michael (12:51.981)
Yeah, it's a really lonely place being an owner out there. You know, you could be in a shopping center amongst hundreds of other businesses, but it's still, I think, largely a lonely exercise when you have some challenges or when you have some really exciting opportunities, you're not quite sure who to share them with or how to go about it. So that's why industry bodies and the work you do is vitally important. And yeah, you encourage everybody to.
any owner to become part of their industry body or at least networks and get amongst other business owners because the problems are pretty universal and share the load a little. So the industry, how do you see the... I just keep thinking about, I think one of the things
Sandy Chong (13:34.182)
Exactly.
Michael (13:51.357)
through the skilled migration program because the industry needs them. And that you said, and poaching them from competitors, it doesn't net-net help the industry overall. So really your thoughts on where the industry is at, what it needs to do as an industry to sustain it so people can be assured of a quality haircut for the next...
Sandy Chong (14:18.146)
Yeah, well, you brought up a couple of things there. So I know that with today, there's been the release of the migration review and I've cast my eyes over it already. I think again, hairdressing though has missed out because the Tismet, which is the minimum amount that you are to pay someone if you're sponsoring them, is too high for our industry. So the government has looked after the much higher end industries where the wages are.
135,000 and up. So unfortunately, we've missed out there. Part of my role, though, is lobbying and doing the advocacy work on behalf of the industry. And so I know that we will, and we have been lobbying for a low-autism anyway. We've been on the skill shortage list for over 20 years. How do we grow our industry and make sure there is a sustainability factor there? The hard thing is we're over 80% female. And what happens is we have a skill shortage
They have babies and stay at home and they may come back, but if they do, it's part time. So, you know, we become an underproductive industry. We always have that skill shortage. I think investing in apprenticeships is important and growing your own. It is an investment of time, money and your energy. And do they all stay? And the answer is no. You know, time's very different to 10 years ago and 20 years ago. And, you know, there's a transference of, I guess,
younger people who like to move between the trades. One thing that is, or I hope that will be better in our future in all trades for that matter, is the new jobs and skills councils and what they will do is they're looking at not just training packages, which are very dated, but training, I guess, products where you can move amongst a trade and capture, I guess, certain units of learning.
versus being stuck into one trade, because many industries like ours have a very low completion rate. So we lose 63% of our apprentices in the first year, and there's a few reasons for that. But if they can move units around, that means that you could start somewhere, move to another trade and not lose anything, and then go to another trade.
Michael (16:32.873)
Yeah, it's so important that it's really difficult for someone to know at an age where they're starting an apprenticeship that this is the thing they want to do. And maybe it's, I don't want to go to a more formal tertiary route and do a course and switch between trades. It says that they're interested in
in acquiring some skills and maybe they're going to move around a bit. Yeah, it shouldn't be penalized, it shouldn't be so much weight on them that this is the one thing they've chosen and that's it, whether they like it or not.
Sandy Chong (17:06.826)
Yeah. And they have to, yeah, and they have to start again. Although the data shows a lot of success with SBAT. So, you know, kids that start a trade while they're at school in year 11 and year 12. And that's showing a lot of promise. So, you know, we're working with, you know, different, I guess, departments to try and encourage that. So more school based apprentice trainees. So they work in a business one day a week. They go to college one day a week and they go to school the other three.
Michael (17:21.077)
Okay.
Sandy Chong (17:36.706)
and it's part of their high school certificate. The other one that we're looking at too is group training organizations because they seem to have a higher completion rate and it's because of the mentoring that happens with them. So that doesn't happen in our industry and I really think it would be really great if we could get, you know, if we could be part of that. But I think our sell-on's not quite used to that idea that they don't quite know how that works.
Michael (18:00.393)
Yeah, as you said, it can be a disruption when you're worrying about all the other things that come with running a business, but it is so pleasing to hear when there are employers, smaller businesses who employ so many Australians that they will open their door one day a week. And I think that's a part of the answer is to have exposure to small businesses as an employer.
as challenging as it can be. The bigger organizations do a great job. However, if you go in and you see what goes on in a small business, even at a young age, I'm sure it leaves an impression straight away, whether it's perhaps good, bad or otherwise.
Sandy Chong (18:45.91)
Well, I think a lot of people too think that what goes in the till goes in your pocket. That's certainly not the case, as you know, with small business. Most small business people, or all small business people, pay themselves last. And many will actually get paid a lot less in their staff. And when we go home, we worry about our business. We go to bed, we worry about our business. We wake up, we worry about our business.
Michael (19:10.361)
Yeah, and the people that you're employing, yeah, it is. But as you say, that education, there's a lot of education that can be done and good on, you know, and other industry bodies for doing that, just, you know, to make owners more aware of the basic finances of a business, you know, cash, you know, yeah, cashing is not what you, you know, necessarily take out. We all wanna have, you know, the cash is...
Cash flow is a great thing, but you've got to manage it. And that's, if you haven't been exposed to cash flow, profit and loss, management accounts, it can look completely overwhelming. I see that all the time with owners. But it's also not rocket science once you've had a bit of training and a bit of awareness through.
Sandy Chong (19:59.57)
I think accountants don't speak our language either. And you know, you look at a P&L and it just, it's just, it doesn't really make sense. I've always worked on percentages. So I like to know what percentage were my wages, what percentage is my supply cost, what percentage is my rent, you know? And so I always would work off percentages. And even when we speak to hairdressers and their staff, we'll talk about 100 cents or, you know, which equals 100 per cent.
and what percentage should be on your stock, all of that type of thing. And I find that sometimes in much easier way. Sometimes I think if an accountant could just talk like that, then we'd get it straight away.
Michael (20:40.849)
Yeah, that's right. And I think there's some fantastic accountants doing some great work explaining to owners what the bottom line is and what you should do to make it better and in a language they understand. But for many it's, and its owners as well, they just want to get the quarterly BAS done and then they want to get the tax return done and then they leave all that information.
and go back to what they were doing a couple of hours before, which is managing staff and working out how they're going to pay the rent. I have those conversations more towards the end of someone's ownership when they're looking to sell and a lot of business owners, they manage by looking at a few KPIs. Maybe it's cash in the bank, maybe it's the work in progress or whatever the industry
fundamentally most haven't closely analyzed their numbers over the preceding years and really have little or out of kilter expectations about what that translates to in terms of business value for a buyer. So yeah, but that's education. With your role, you...
Do you want to just, you had six years and that's one of the premier small business advocacy organizations and is that a role that you let go only just recently?
Sandy Chong (22:22.546)
I let go at the end of my six year tenure. So that was in, I think it was 2021. And yeah, so 2021. And, but we are still very active. I think the one of the amazing things, so it's Cosmo is the Council of Small Business Organisations of Australia. So they're members, organisations that represent small business. And so what is really, I guess what happened during the pandemic, of course, is we all had virtual meetings.
Michael (22:28.374)
Okay, it's a few years back. Yeah
Sandy Chong (22:50.534)
And Cosboa did set up, you know, sort of meetings every fortnightly or monthly with all of their members. And they've continued to do that. So I have to admit, the good thing is being on the board, it is a lot of work. You know, I certainly take my hat off to all of the directors of Cosboa because the work is huge. However, being able to attend, I'm on a lot of committees, so I should say that I may not be on the board, but I'm there.
Education and Training, the VET committee. I'm on a whole heap of other committees, the Shadow Economy Advisory Forum, the ACCC committee on small business, green washing. I don't know, I'm on a whole lot of different committees that come under COSBOA, the Migration Committee, that come under COSBOA anyway, which is really valuable.
But I think the thing that I've learned from Cosboa as well is how to run an association. I think that was really important. And when you were talking before about small business and networking with other like-minded people, one of the values of Cosboa is being able to actually speak with any of those members all the time, whether it is about leasing and...
dealing with landlords or whether it is to do with the cost of running a business at the moment, industrial relations, migration, everything that you just said before. You know, being with Cospro, whether on the board or off the board, it's an incredibly, I think it's a real value to our organisation and the industry.
Michael (24:26.245)
Yeah, we keep, you know, small business is for good, bad, or otherwise is, it really is the backbone of the, and we've, we're so dominated by a small number of big companies and we can argue about all the, you know, the value contributed and the dollars, but there's a lot of, there's a lot of small businesses and a lot of employees employed by small business. The, the one, the one.
sort of point that keeps making me feel a little uneasy is the recognition of the, I think it's 1.2 million zero employee small businesses. So within the overall definition of what is a small business, 80% of them are zero employees. But there's a lot of those that are legit in inverted commas businesses.
They might choose to be, have zero employees or they might contract out some work, but they're running businesses and they're, they're standalone businesses. But however you, they're independent. They, you know, they do, they've got their own, usually got their own BAS, GST registration and have to, have to do all the compliance stuff. So it's not as easy as just taking a salary every week and not have to worry about any paperwork, but that's, you know, that's the one thing.
personal services type businesses, hairdressing, barbering would come under that. So they need to get more of a credibility, more focus.
Sandy Chong (26:07.926)
Yeah, we do have a membership called SOS, Single Operator, Salon. And they also go through the checklist and we have things available for that. 70% of our industry are now single operators. So I hear what you're saying. But we actually do recommend that they can also take on apprentices if they want to. And the issue is, and I know you were talking about selling a business, but the cost of living at the moment, not many small people.
Michael (26:13.358)
Oh yeah.
Sandy Chong (26:36.742)
small people, sorry, not many young people. I'm short, they used to call me little Sandy and I hated that for years and years and years. Couldn't wait to get rid of that one. But, you know, a lot of the younger people do not have the money to buy a business. And so, unfortunately, there are quite a few businesses in our industry that are just closing the doors and they're going to rent a space. Now, the thing is with a single operator, it could be a stepping stone to opening up a business, just being able to, you know, sort of
try on your own and I'd much rather someone I guess go out and be on their own rather than take half my staff for instance. So there are reasons why we have so many operators who are single operators now in our industry. The flexibility and the flexibility is one you know and it's really difficult with the government and with industry relations that doesn't permit the flexibility that staff demand and want and if you're not going to give it to me I'll go out on my own that's one.
Michael (27:19.737)
Yeah, good raisins.
Sandy Chong (27:35.022)
Having families again, the flexibility. But for some owners, industrial relations have made it really hard to employ staff. It's probably every business's biggest stress is employing staff. And the cost of that is increasing with all of the entitlements and also the changes that IARC represents.
Michael (28:00.709)
Well, if you look at the P&L of every business, human resources, employees and rent, unless you're a manufacturing business, they're your two major costs and expenses and they represent 80, 90%, but sometimes even more. And so everything else pales into insignificance.
Michael (28:31.301)
giant forces there, the IR, the regulations around employing people and the complexity. And if you're renting a place, you talked about people not being able to afford to buy a business, they can't afford to live in houses as well. Maybe it's a choice between a house and a business. But that's compressing the
I think the incentive is there for a lot of people to do their own thing, but you can't afford it to have both. It's not quite sure where that all ends, but people want to get their hair cut, so I guess it'll find its way somehow.
Sandy Chong (29:20.35)
I think the pandemic really showed communities that, you know, we're a very valuable part. And that's where small business is great, OK? When you talk about this, you know, there's the duopolies out there, as in the Coles, the Woolworths. But we look at community businesses, small businesses, and what we do for our community. Now, with hairdressing, it's part of everybody's self-esteem, their confidence, but it's also a big part of their mental health.
And that's where we feel that our industry is very important to our communities.
Michael (29:54.565)
I agree fully. I think the consumers, the customers, clients look forward to that debrief as well as a haircut. And it's a vital role in socializing and having someone that you're so up close and personal with for two, three hours while you're getting your haircut. So I agree fully. That's.
the nobility of, you know, over and above a great haircut, there's, I'm sure a lot of people would be the worst without it.
Sandy Chong (30:30.862)
plus we'd know a lot of your secrets too. Alex is sealed, don't worry.
Michael (30:35.521)
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, that's right. It's a cone of silence. I wanted to finish on, you reeled off X number of things that you're involved with and I can, you know, in terms of on committees and boards and advisories. So I understand you've got a, like a deep passion for small business.
Sandy Chong (30:44.238)
Hehehe
Michael (31:05.421)
And that was, you received, I think in April, the Cosboa Small Business Champion Award. So is that, can you just tell us a little bit about what that involved? Is that you'd be like an ambassador for the year, is that, and go out and talk about small business in that role?
Sandy Chong (31:27.748)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think it's to do with your lobbying and, you know, the advocacy work that you do. And Bruce Billson is the small business and family enterprise ombudsman. And he always says that there's one thing about leaders and the true leaders turn up, okay. And, you know, I guess it's one thing that I've always tried to do. I think I've missed hardly any Cosmo meetings. You count them on one hand since 2012.
And when it comes to speak, I'll drive down to Canberra for one hour meeting. It's a five hour drive for me. Go to Parliament House, stay one hour and drive back. And so, you know, I think that's the thing that I do is I turn up as much as I can to everything. I speak to the government on a state and federal level. And I guess because I've been in the industry for 50 years, I own my own business for 39, employed a lot of apprentices. I do know what I'm talking about.
when it comes to representing our industry. I've walked in their shoes, definitely walked in their shoes. So when it comes to any aspect, any part of our industry, I guess I sort of know, but if I don't know, I'll go and source what I do need to know. But I think I was recognized with that award just quite simply because my face is always in their face. And, but mind you, Cospo has been really generous in making sure I'm included in a lot of things too.
Michael (32:55.557)
Yeah, well, as far as I can see, you have all the hallmarks of someone that should get an award like that in 39 years and to successfully sell, pass on to another buyer that's going to run the business in the way you think is appropriate. And you've trained all these people, you've kind of fed the industry and it's a great achievement.
drove you in the first place, it's gone back away, but to be a small business owner, I suspect whatever it is, it's still there now as a driver for you.
Sandy Chong (33:32.19)
Oh, I know what drove me to be a hairdresser. You know, it's a very inclusive industry. And I loved the whole tribe and the vibe and I loved the culture and how colorful hairdressing is. And I think that's one thing about our industry, we're very inclusive of anyone. And I was subjected to a lot of bullying when I was young because I'm part Chinese. And when I walked into a salon, it was just exciting. Do you know what I mean?
But as far as opening my own salon, I worked for someone who wasn't a good business person and I wanted to be a good business person. I wanted to have a successful business and I knew that if everyone around me was successful with me, then I would be successful too. And I just loved, I guess, helping others, teaching others. I know that I've contributed a lot to the industry as far as education, training, business goes.
And I guess I just really enjoyed having my own business. It's hard work. You know, it is not easy work, it's hard work. And when I had the Paddington salon, I would have worked six days and four nights for 10 years. I don't remember that part of my life in fact, but I think, I don't know, small business people are generally drivers. I mean, they're a different personality, aren't they? You know, they're out there and they're doing it.
Michael (34:54.061)
Yeah, look, they are and I'm always intrigued as to what it was the trigger for someone to get into their business and mostly they're pretty humble and mostly it's sort of less strategic and more, you know, they saw an opportunity and they don't consider themselves entrepreneurs. They just saw someone that saw an opportunity and they go and do it and they see themselves
mainly as a business owner. Yeah, it's really, it's always deeply fascinating and they, in a lot of cases are doing it because there's purpose and there's other, there's financial benefits. Sometimes they're really significant. Sometimes, often they earn themselves a wage and some decent profits and they've got a lot of flexibility but they feel like they're doing something that.
they're connected to. Not everyone, they all have their bad days of course, but yeah, it's um.
Sandy Chong (35:50.986)
Yeah.
Oh, and I've made, I've probably made more mistakes than most business people too, I think, right from day one, because our business flew and I had nothing in place, no policies, no procedures, no idea what I was doing. But I did have a very strong clientele. So I made huge mistakes. And I, you know, I did right to, you know, for 39 years I made mistakes. But I guess, look, I just really loved what I was doing. And...
I have had very few holidays, I'll admit that. The most time I've had off was five weeks when I had my daughter. Other than that, it was the first five years I didn't have a holiday at all. My holidays would be a Sunday and a Monday. And I was pretty excited to get two days off in a row. But yeah, look, small business people, they do work hard and they often don't have a strategy in place. And I was one of them. I had no plans except to open those doors.
Michael (36:26.311)
Hehehe
Sandy Chong (36:53.019)
And I guess from an HSC perspective, we try and capture those new business people so that we can help them. So they don't make the mistakes like I made.
Michael (37:01.645)
Yeah, there's plenty of people that have made the same mistake and sometimes more than once. And that networking thing again, or that industry, take advantage of that because you don't have to face all of these new challenges like you're the only one that's ever faced them. And yeah, so you're sorry, you're about to.
Sandy Chong (37:21.666)
Yeah.
Sandy Chong (37:25.07)
I was going to say some don't join an association because they're a little bit scared. They think you'll judge them or something. And also too, like I've laid off being saying to potential people, you know, when I go to the industry, I go, the first thing I need to let you know is I'm not a regulator. We're not a regulator because sometimes, you know, they'll see that you're an association. They think they're going to get into trouble or something. It's like, no, we're here to support you. We're here to represent you.
And if things go wrong, then come to us and let us know. That type of thing.
Michael (37:59.713)
Excellent. Sandy, I was going to ask just to close out for today, do you have any particular small business heroes or resources that you use on a regular basis to keep, particularly you're still in a, you're just out of your business, but was there any people you particularly admired in blogs or books that you read?
Sandy Chong (38:31.66)
I think I just really enjoy certain people in the industry who, as you say, are humble, who have really great ethical standards in place with their staff. There's some really wonderful people in our industry. Off the top of my head, Jenny Tarrant from Bond Religion has done so much charity work, it's mind boggling.
You know, and Jenny is probably one of the most beautiful people in the world who has raised no end of charitable funds and supporting homeless or those out of work with her particular cell. Helen Owens from Tigerland, Brisbane is another one. Lots of humanitarian work. I think hairdressers often give back. And
You know, I think that's one thing that really stands out for me, is they have really incredible business structures. They're incredibly generous to their staff, but it's the community generosity that, you know, I love watching these people. Brendan Mann from Epic in Brisbane is another one. Brody Signares is a young business owner who has incredible, I guess, ethos with her apprentices.
But in saying that Charlene Lee over in Perth, insanely good business in Perth, her sounds good circles. So there's too many heroes for me to mention, I have to admit. I'll miss someone and I'll feel terrible. It'll be like, oh, I didn't mention them.
Michael (40:02.673)
Yeah, but, yeah, and they're champions of small business and hopefully can in that way, share some of that through the industry body to kind of motivate and inspire the next generation who might be a 15 or 16 year old deciding that they want to take the pathway of a trade. So.
Sandy, thanks so much. I really enjoyed the discussion. And to chat with someone who's so steeped in small business is really enlightening and enjoyable. So thank you.
Sandy Chong (40:46.53)
Thank you for having me.
Michael (40:49.825)
If someone wanted to reach out in your capacity as the CEO of the hairdressing council or in your capacity as the current small business champion, what's the easiest way for them assuming?
Sandy Chong (41:04.278)
So probably the easiest way to remember is just go to the Australian Hairdressing Council website and there'll be a contact us and I actually get all those emails anyway, I see them. I have a team that if I do miss one of them because they open them up, they'll send it to me. So that's probably the easiest way to go to our website.
Michael (41:20.677)
Yeah, okay. Yeah, well, we'll put the website in the show notes. And so if you're listening, don't worry. It'll be in the show notes. Maybe we should just call it out anyway, the website. Just someone's.
Sandy Chong (41:33.366)
So it's www.vahc.org.au. So T-H-E-A-H-C.org.au.
Michael (41:44.781)
Excellent. All right, Sandy, great chat. Thanks so much for your time. I wish you well.
Sandy Chong (41:49.378)
Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.
Michael (41:57.344)
Alrighty.